WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle

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Creed

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WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« on: 9 Jun 2020, 03:42 am »
Hi, just bought a WTRP and trying to learn set up. All this is new to me. Is paddle to be totally submerged or just a certain percentage. If it is not to be totally submerged would 20%, 40% or so on be the correct amount to be covered. If someone can tell me what depth work for you and why,thanks for any help.

Whitespider

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Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #1 on: 10 Jun 2020, 07:48 am »
Hi, congratulations on being the owner of a WTRP. I am curious, is your arm silver, which is the earlier arm, or the black one which was made later and has a thicker fluid cup as well as a larger cartridge mounting block?  The amount of silicone fluid is the same in both.  Which falls into the category of “it depends.”   I use a medium compliant moving iron cartridge from Soundsmith and have the fluid so it just covers the disc. That would be the minimum where I would start if you are using a moving magnet or moving iron cartridge. If you add too much fluid you risk over dampening and getting a duller sound. If on the other hand you are using a high mass low compliant cartridge you want to have the fluid well over the disc. We are talking millimeters over, not huge amounts.  This would be the sonic equivalent of putting that cartridge in a high mass arm that it requires.  Bill Firebaugh had a method of timing the  descent time over a certain distance the arm with a mounted cartridge to determine the proper amount of fluid.  I find I run the fluid higher in my very early Well Tempered Arm with the stainless steel arm. The arm on the WTRP is aluminum.  You will need to experiment with the fluid amount.  Use a small syringe like the type for giving medicine to children. It’s the easiest way of adding or removing fluid. The silicone fluid can be cleaned up with alcohol. But don’t over think it because it will drive you crazy.  The WTRP will sound great once you get it up and running.

Be aware that if you are trying to set your azimuth and your disc paddle is highly tilted, you can adjust the cartridge mounting plate. There is a small screw that attaches the mounting plate to the arm. When this is loosened the mounting plate will rotate a few degrees so the arm can be leveled out. At least that’s the case with my WTRP with the silver arm.  You then can more easily set the azimuth with the small knob on the arm.

I hope this information is useful and answers your question.


Creed

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Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #2 on: 10 Jun 2020, 06:58 pm »
Thank you very much for your reply that helps a lot. Most people have golf ball. Mine has silver arm black platter. Im using MM and MI. Grado ref 2, Soundsmith Zephr and Azden. I have been running arm with about 50% submerged I did not know paddle should be totally covered. Am I understanding you correctly? After reading this I put more fluid in and it does sound better but did not have enough to totally cover paddle. I need to order more. I have a Linn lp12 Cirkus bearing, Ittok 3, lingo power supply and prefer this WT even though not set up correctly, pretty shocked with that. I do notice when I drop the arm it floats down to the right pretty drastic if that's any indication of anti skate, is that normal? where do you order your fluid, thanks for all your help.

Whitespider

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Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #3 on: 10 Jun 2020, 11:50 pm »
I was able to purchase my fluid locally from a hobby store many years ago.  100,000 cSt silicone fluid is easily obtained from the online from eBay sellers or even Amazon.  Around $10 for 2 ounces.  There is no audiophile brand.

Do you actually have a WTRP or a Classic turntable.  The WTRP didn't come with a black damped platter.  Is your tonearm a single post with the fluid cup attached directly to the post or is the cup attached to the bottom of a mounting plate with two uprights and a scale on the side to indicate adjusting VTA and  tonearm height?  If the latter, the arm has a vernier-shaped knob that is the anti-skate adjustment.  The simplified arm on the WTRP does not have anti-shape adjustment.  You would need to disconnect the attachment point for the monofilament and remove a possible half twist of the strings.

There needs to be enough fluid around the disc so the arm behaves like it's being held captive around the rotation axis of the tonearm.  If the disc is just touching the fluid, the arm would have excessive movement, especially when cueing a disc.  Adding additional fluid causes the arm to become more axial on it's rotation.  But again, if you have too much fluid covering the disc, the arm will drift very slowly down because of the extra dampening.  This will all reduce the overall noise and give a blacker black.  The negative with too much dampening is a deadening of the dynamics of the music and loss of intimacy.  The music will sounds a few rows back.  With a cartridge like your Grado which are always voiced with mid range purity, the bass can sound out of balance with too much dampening.

Others will have their own opinions of how much fluid to use.  I will add this.  I own a prototype Well Tempered Arm mounted on a old AR XB turntable.  This was the turntable that Bill Firebaugh left with the Southern California dealer to evaluate.  I listened to this turntable set up for many months until it was available to purchase from the dealer.  The disc was well covered by the silicone fluid.  I still use this 35 year old arm and table in one my of systems daily.  As well as an early WTRP.

Creed

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Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #4 on: 11 Jun 2020, 03:03 am »
Mine is a WTRP round motor with silver simple arm, previous owner bought the black plater later. I check the arm for a twist in fishing line but did not see one. My only concern is how the arm pulls to the right when dropped if it will damage needle or through soundstage out of wack. I'm going to buy more fluid and cover paddle it's almost there but not totally. Should it pull to right or do I need to put a twist in line to pull toward spindle to counteract right pull and maybe leave a much slighter right hand pull if that makes sense for antiskate, sure appreciate your help.

gagamut

Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #5 on: 11 Jun 2020, 03:12 am »
do you have a WTRP manual?

Apesbrain

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Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #6 on: 12 Jun 2020, 01:22 pm »
I have linked to a few photos that I hope will help.  The cup fluid covers my paddle by about 1/16", but as others have mentioned this is somewhat dependent on the choice of cartridge.  The fishing line is not twisted, but note that the front line goes to the inside attachment point on the paddle.  This provides correct anti-skate.

https://i.imgur.com/nQfaqPA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WfMyg6N.jpg

(Forgive the dust!)

Creed

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Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #7 on: 13 Jun 2020, 03:22 am »
Apesbrain are those 2 photos the same set up, one picture does not look like line cross but the other does. I can see how one end of line is held in place with a screw but do not understand how the other end is held as it goes into the post with the knob. My line does not cross like that in second picture. I would like to give it a try but do not understand how fishing line connection works. I ordered some more silicone my paddle is only a little over 50% submerged. Will more silicone stop arm pulling back to the right so much, thanks for everyone's help.

Apesbrain

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Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #8 on: 13 Jun 2020, 01:36 pm »
Yes, same setup.  The lines do not cross: the front line goes to the left side of the paddle and the rear line goes to the right.  Hopefully this photo will make it more clear:



I have never taken the knob assembly at the top of the post apart, so I'm not certain what happens in there.  When the knob is turned, it causes the line attached to it to change length thus adjusting cartridge azimuth.  My guess is that the knob has a threaded shaft with an eyelet thru-hole through which the line is passed and tied off.

The paddle at rest is about midway down the cup.  The two lines do not touch the arm in any way; there is about 1/8" clearance between the lines and either side of the arm.  There is a small bolt (not visible in the photo) holding the cup to the arm post and the fluid comes to just below this bolt.

Creed

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Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #9 on: 14 Jun 2020, 04:20 am »
Thank you very much for that one that tells me a lot. Since I'm running my paddle without enough silicone will I hear a difference or experience the tonearm acting differently when silicone comes in and I will be able to totally cover paddle? I dons not sound bad now.

Apesbrain

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Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #10 on: 15 Jun 2020, 11:25 am »
Since I'm running my paddle without enough silicone will I hear a difference or experience the tonearm acting differently when silicone comes in and I will be able to totally cover paddle?
I don't know if it will be audible, but having the paddle immersed in the silicone has to change the arm dynamics.  Good luck!

Hikmer

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Re: WTRP how deep do you submerge paddle
« Reply #11 on: 8 Sep 2020, 07:22 pm »
I just spent the weekend fine tuning my well tempered classic arm with arm upgrade and adding more damping helped significantly improve the bass and soundstage.  Well balanced and less forward.  If you can experiment, perhaps heavily dampen then remove fluid to see the effects.  You should be able to get the product from this source http://www.turntablebasics.com/silicone.html