Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build

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OldScott

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Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #40 on: 10 Jun 2020, 04:01 am »
Some further thoughts for anyone using the Behringers for the first time. It is fantastic what  all these will do but the learning curve is relatively steep and the manuals could be better. Also there is quite a difference between successfully setting these units up and setting them up for peak performance. A search on Google will bring up a few sets of detailed instruction on how to do this. You will also find some important tips and steps to take not found elsewhere.

Jstower

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Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #41 on: 12 Jun 2020, 01:51 am »
Well I have ordered the 1" MDF for the cabinets. It's going to be 2-3 weeks. I'm going to have them cut the length of the sheets so its easier to handle.

Once I get one cabinet done with the drivers and passives, Will start a new thread on the VMPS Circles. Once both towers are up and playing I will be working on a pair of Hot Rodded VMPS speakers to match if everything works out. Hopefully by the end of summer I should be done with cabinets. As of now I'm working 60-70hr  :( a week now.

WGH, as far as how I deal with electronics  now. I have used the Behringer DCX 2496 in the pass in other systems, it works great. May go back to it once everything is up and running.  But Right now my two channel system consists of a pair of VMPS speakers bi-amped with Ampzilla Monos on mids and tweeter and Ncore 400 Monos on the bass,  two  VMPS Largers subwoofers. The sub amp has a built-in adjustable crossover ( 100Hz )(Crown XLS2000) and the Meridian 861 v4 does all room corrections.

Old Scott, thanks for the Link. behringermods.com. If this does what they say, its worth trying. Right my DCX is just setting, good time to upgrade.  Thanks

Housteau, Thanks for the pictures, Your room and system is what people strive for. Thanks

Good discussion here, hopefully everyone learned a little something, I know I have, Thanks Guys

JLM

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Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #42 on: 15 Jun 2020, 12:03 pm »
Better than sub towers is a sub swarm (3 - 4 subs carefully placed around the room to address inherent severe in-room bass peaks/dips).  Suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction", the consummate audiophile primer that explains how speakers/subwoofers behave in-room.  Duke LeJeune (check out Audio Kinesis in the vendor sub-circles here at Audio Circle) sells such a system.  Duke and Floyd knows their stuff!

Housteau

Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #43 on: 15 Jun 2020, 02:31 pm »
Better than sub towers is a sub swarm (3 - 4 subs carefully placed around the room to address inherent severe in-room bass peaks/dips).  Suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction", the consummate audiophile primer that explains how speakers/subwoofers behave in-room.  Duke LeJeune (check out Audio Kinesis in the vendor sub-circles here at Audio Circle) sells such a system.  Duke and Floyd knows their stuff!

If I was starting over for whatever reason I would consider it, because the theory is solid.  Recently I actually had the chance to add in extra subs just to see how the response in my room would change.  I was not expecting the results that I came up with.

First off my towers being part of a 4 piece ssystem are placed symmetrical to the mains and to the room itself.  As I positioned one for the best response I mirrored it with the second.  I fully understand that the theory for best placement is not what I have done, but my results are very good.  My reason for doing this was partially for aesthetics, but also because I wanted to maintain a common and united Wavelaunch top to bottom.  I do use some DSP to remove and smooth out remaining peaks.

In the past I had tried placement of my towers not for symmetry, but strictly for best response.  I was able to get a smoother curve with that and by adjusting the phase.  The graph looked great, but musically there was something really off.

As I mentioned I had the chance recently to add in an extra sub just to see what would happen.  My thoughts were that a third sub should improve the natural curve in my room where I could eliminate some, if not all of my minimal DSP corrections.  However, that just didn't happen.  No matter where I placed that 3rd sub the room with the DSP off the real time plot for the bass response did not improve.  It did change somewhat, but did not improve and that did surprise me.  I also listened to music with it in the different locations, because the graphs don't tell the whole story.  Each time something was taken away rather than improved.  It was a very nice sub and I wanted an excuse to keep it, but just couldn't justify it.

What that told me is that for my particular room my towers are placed right where they need to be and that there is value in keeping a united wavelaunch.  If my room dimensions were different I would expect that my results would have been also.  For whatever reason my symmetrical set up while it may be an exception to the general rule, it is working well for me in this room.

OldScott

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Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #44 on: 15 Jun 2020, 04:08 pm »
I"LL BE DARNED! I did not know Dave had tried a subwoofer. He uses RTA for analysis whereas I use XTZ Pro plus my DSPeaker X4 preamp also does bass measurement.  Some time also I also decided to try adding subwoofer enhancement but unlike Dave I decided to try two. Guess what? My findings mirror Dave's! I about wore out the carpet trying different locations only to find nothing made an appreciable improvement. As with Dave's findings I got some slightly different readings but no improvement. I can't explain it either.  Maybe it's just that our V-60's are jealous of intruders?

Jstower

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Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #45 on: 15 Jun 2020, 05:30 pm »
Hello, Maybe because of the tallness of the towers, the bass wave is more spread out throughout the room, top to bottom. This is why I'm building. Good Stuff.

Not many people have seen or heard VLA Subwoofers. I don't believe Brian ever used them at any of the Audio Shows. I thought I read somewhere he was going to, but they got damaged in shipping.

Dave and Paul, you both have world class systems.

I appreciate all the input. Jim

Early B.

Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #46 on: 15 Jun 2020, 05:47 pm »
As I mentioned I had the chance recently to add in an extra sub just to see what would happen.  My thoughts were that a third sub should improve the natural curve in my room where I could eliminate some, if not all of my minimal DSP corrections.  However, that just didn't happen.  No matter where I placed that 3rd sub the room with the DSP off the real time plot for the bass response did not improve.  It did change somewhat, but did not improve and that did surprise me. 

An ideal swarm is 4 identical subs. If the third sub that you introduced isn't exactly like the first two, it's gonna be difficult to integrate. Imagine having a third VLA tower. Wow!!!  I tried a different sub, at first, and it didn't work. Then I added an identical third sub and it worked great. No, I don't use measurements or DSP, just my ears. The third sub works equally well for me positioned in the rear or up front.  My room configuration doesn't allow for a fourth sub, but if it did, I would do it.

OldScott

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Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #47 on: 15 Jun 2020, 05:55 pm »
Hummm! Thank you Jstower. You may well have a good point. Also all or some of three things may be relevant here. Firstly the four 12 inch woofers were made to have different resonating frequencies by Brian. Secondly almost all subwoofers are squat structures sitting below us at floor level. Lastly I think most subwoofers are utilized in Home Theater systems and placement studies have been primarily made for that medium. Although there are similarities in setup the two call for different approaches. 

Housteau

Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #48 on: 15 Jun 2020, 10:38 pm »

Not many people have seen or heard VLA Subwoofers. I don't believe Brian ever used them at any of the Audio Shows. I thought I read somewhere he was going to, but they got damaged in shipping.

Yes.  That was in 2009 for THE Show at the Alexis Park.  We ended up using two stacked largers per side.  It was a good sized room with terrible acoustics.  It was the first Live vs Recorded demo that Brian did.  Paul and I were both there.  It was my first time assisting at shows.  After that one I did the DSD recordings for the other shows ending in 2012.

Housteau

Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #49 on: 15 Jun 2020, 11:16 pm »
An ideal swarm is 4 identical subs. If the third sub that you introduced isn't exactly like the first two, it's gonna be difficult to integrate. Imagine having a third VLA tower. Wow!!!  I tried a different sub, at first, and it didn't work. Then I added an identical third sub and it worked great. No, I don't use measurements or DSP, just my ears. The third sub works equally well for me positioned in the rear or up front.  My room configuration doesn't allow for a fourth sub, but if it did, I would do it.

How important is it for you to be sitting at equal distances from each sub?  I have read different things from different people on this.  My own experience shows that for my two towers that is important to preserve a unified wavefront .

Jstower

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Re: Subwoofer: VLA Tower Build
« Reply #50 on: 16 Jun 2020, 01:39 am »
An ideal swarm is 4 identical subs.  Imagine having a third VLA tower. Wow!!!
Early B,  WOW! :o :o, If the first two work out, Maybe I'll add the third, a little crazy. but the fourth VLA Tower would be over the top BASS :o :o
« Last Edit: 16 Jun 2020, 04:25 pm by Jstower »