[corwin99]

Cmarnett, thanks for the tip. I just snapped up some pics of it before i haul them off to work tomorrow so fedex can pick them up from me.

[Dunedain]

corwin99:  I know what you and the other guys here are talking about!  We got a pair of VMPS RM2 speakers
about a year ago and they were delivered after dark (it was late in the year, it gets dark early) by UPS.  Well, we got the
huge boxes inside and once they were in the light we noticed that there was considerable damage to the boxes.
One hole in the side of one of the boxes was so big I could put my fist in it!

What the IN THE WORLD do these IDIOTS do with these boxes that they get so damaged??!!  How would they like it
if I came in their house and grabbed their new big t.v. and tossed it down the cellar stairs?  Well, that's about how much
care they show for other peoples' property.  Property, I might add, that they are being PAID to deliver unharmed.

We almost fainted when we saw the condition of the boxes!  We were sure that the speakers would be damaged
inside.  How could they not be?  Well, it turns out Brian (designer, builder and packer of the speakers) packed
these RM2's to a level that is beyond anything I have seen before, super heavy protection on all sides.
Three cheers for Big B.!    And it's a good thing he did!  If these speakers weren't so incredibly well-packed,
they would almost certainly have been damaged, possibly severely, by the disgraceful treatment they got during
shipment.

If we ever have to ship something expensive and delicate again (like that Dual-Mono or those Mono Extremes we
would like to get ), we will definitely be using Bax.  I don't care what the shipping costs, I don't want those
monkeys at UPS touching it!  I want professionals who know how to take their time and deliver things in mint condition.
And I've heard nothing but good things about Bax.

[corwin99]

One hole in the side of one of the boxes was so big I could put my fist in it!

That's about how the hole in one of the Odyssey boxes was!!  I guess they could benefit from additional reinforcements of the boxes, but i guess Klauss has been sending these long enough that he feels its not necessary yet. This is the first time i've had anything damaged this badly, so i would have to say it is an isolated incident as far as my experiences are concerned...

I'm glad your VMPS's weren't damaged! I've been eyeing those speakers too, but after this problem shipping from the US I am reconsidering it.. shipping from the US makes many more stops due to customs, which means many more chances of holes

[klaus@odyssey]

Man oh man,  this is a sour issue,  because I've tried so many different ways,  even buying a $ 500.  chemical mix gun for in-box foaming.  Big mess.  Had bubble wrapped units to death,  had box-in -boxes,  etc.  Point is that it's a heavy amp,  and it doesn't matter who you use as a carrier.  If they want to,  they'll all succeed in hammering your boxes.

Right now,  I'm pretty happy with the in the air foam packaging,  corners,  corrugated materials and the masonite inserts.  Only had less than 2 %  problems,  which is very good for heavy stuff,  believe me. Besides,  that's what insurance is for.  The problem becomes when a unit is re-shipped and the shipper doesn't pack correctly.

As for crates,  that would be awesome,  BUT  too expensive,  and too heavy.

Late,

Klaus

[Dunedain]

Klaus:  Well, if a company is using Bax to handle their delicate porcelain deliveries, then there must be something
special about the way Bax does things.  From everything I've heard about Bax, they seem to put a much higher
priority on careful handling of packages than do the UPS or Federal Express.  Maybe that's why they cost more.
But it's worth it to me to not have my high-end amp handled like it was a sack of potatoes.

With a heavy thing like an amp, it is harder to pack them in such a way that effectively protects them.  All that
mass doesn't like to be accelerated, then suddenly decelerated (like from being dropped hard).

Klaus, check out the link below, perhaps you could ship your amps in a box like this?  Put the amp box
in the middle of this big outer box, then fill the entire outer box with styrofoam packing material.
So that there is no empty space left in the outer box at all, and the amp box is sitting in the exact center with
at least 9 inches (12 inches thick on two sides) of styrofoam chips packed tightly on all sides, top and bottom.
Sure, the boxes cost $50 each, but if the buyer is willing to pay the costs, who cares?  And your $2,000 amp
is almost certain to arrive with no damage or structural stress having been caused to it when you use this ultimate box.
What do you think?  

http://www.uline.com/ProductDetail.asp?model=S-4874

[Hantra]

I know what you mean about shipping damage.  I had UPS deliver a Groneberg power cord that didn't work AND was wired out of phase.  I wonder how they do that.  

[byteme]

Trouble is, it's a crapshoot.  If I could get to 98% no issues when shipping using UPS or FedEx, I'd be giddy!  I will say this, Klaus has made definate improvements in his packaging from the time I bought my Stereo Extreme to now when he shipped the Mono Extremes back to me.  Very happy, and, unlike this threads instance mine arrived perfectly.  No issues at all.

I've recently been shipping a fair amount of 92lb Velodyne subs for customers.  UPS so far is 5/7 delivering a new condition working sub.  The other two they destroyed.  I'd love to try DHL but who knows if they'd be any better when it comes to damage?

Sure, you CAN make something nearly bulletproof for shipping, however, as you said at a cost.  And each incrimental cost might turn of a buyer.  Are you willing to take that chance?  Offer it as an option?  With 98% efficiency I don't see why you would.

[Dunedain]

byteme:  Like I said, this would be up to the customer if he wanted a super box like the one in the link above.
An option, he can use it or just go with a regular box at normal cost.  So this isn't going to scare off customers, just
like the fact that the Mono Extremes are available doesn't scare off someone who just wants a Stratos Stereo.
Just consider the box in the link the "Mono Extreme Box" packing option for your amp.  

Personally, I don't want to take any chances.  If I'm going to spend that much money on stereo equipment,
then I want it to arrive in *pristine* condition, inside and out.

[DTB300]

As for crates, that would be awesome, BUT too expensive, and too heavy.

FYI....With my Counterpoint Amp (70 Lbs), I have a custom crate for it and it cost under $50 for the crate.  Have shipped the unit a few times across the country and back (East Coast to West Coast) and never had a problem with it shipped via UPS.

Crate is built with skids on the bottom (to accomodate forks) and the inside is made to handle the foam that goes around the amp.  Works great and really protects the amp from external damage.  Now dropping the amp/crate and/or using it for basketball practice is another thing .

Dan

[Dolfan]

I just bought a pair of mono extremes from Captain Humble. We double boxed with 2 inches of popcorn all around and wrapped the whole thing with stretch wrap. They are being shipped DHL. I'll let you know the results.

[woodsyi]

I recently got my ASL hurricanes back from Bill at Response Audio.  You should have seen my face when UPS guy rolled the box in through the door! There were tubes in the box and both boxes had "fragile" and "this side up" stickers plastered all over.  I was fortunate that the only casualyty was a spare tube.  When box starts weighing over 70 lb's or so, they just roll, slide and push the package around -- any way to move it. Fortunately packing was good enough to survive the "tube rolling"!  The moral of the story is that you have to expect the worst and pack well if you are using UPS or FEDEX and insure it.

[klaus@odyssey]

Dunedain,

You are absolutely correct in that the boxes can be better,  BUT  here is the catch:

boxes would be costlier,  and $ 50.  is a lot for many customers,  and also the shipping,  because the dimensions  and the weight changes.  Thus,  you're looking at a total $ 60 - 80.  increase with internal foam ,  etc.  This is really prohibitive for a lot of customers.
As for crates,  you're not only into the cost of materials,  but also the labor and the added shipping weight, etc.  Besides,  just don't have room to store a bunch of shipping materials that can't be stored flat.  That's also a real concernm.

Like I said,  right now I believe that we are save,  it has been an issue when a unit is re-shipped and the sender doesn't put the foam and box inserts in the right places,

Klaus

[klaus@odyssey]

Ah,  yes,  Hantra,

thanks for bringing this up.   No,  I can definitely say that UPS  didn't screw up the power cord.  Give them some credit here.   It was completely our mistake.   That was done in house,  and actually,  that person is no longer with us,

Klaus

[Hantra]

Ah,  yes,  Hantra,

thanks for bringing this up.   No,  I can definitely say that UPS  didn't screw up the power cord.  Give them some credit here.   It was completely our mistake.   That was done in house,  and actually,  that person is no longer with us,

Klaus

Klaus:

I wasn't bringing it up to be rude.  I seriously was trying to make a joke.  But I really did want to know if the out of phase thing was normal b/c some companies do wire cords out of phase.  It can make subtle differences.

And by the way.  I am impressed as hell with this power cord.  I didn't expect to like it, and wanted to do something cool for charity, and try something new.  This is a great cord.  It's better than my Fat Boy 2000.

Thanks,

B

[Dunedain]

Klaus:  Yes, it would add a good bit to the shipping cost, so this would definitely have to be something the
customer would have to decide if he was willing to pay for.    But again, we're talking about amps that can
be well over $2,000, I consider an extra $80-$100 per amp for a shipping method that virtually guarantees
an amp that arrives in perfect condition insignificant.  Each fellow can decide for himself what he thinks about it.  

As for the space it might take up, from that web site it appears the box stores flat and then goes into the upright position
when used for shipping.  So the storage size would be no bigger than the pallet itself with some flat cardboard on top.
And also, this would not be something that you would necessarily keep in stock, but be a special order item
that would be ordered by the customer when the order for the amp was placed.  Then the box could be ordered
from Uline and when the amp was built and ready for shipping, just stick in into the big box and ship it straight out.
So the box wouldn't need to sit around your shop or anything like that, order it just before you need it.  

[corwin99]

Actually $80 extra per amp is a fair amount... not a LOT considering the prices of the Extreme Monos... but this really does open my eyes. I'm thinking about stuff like the PS Audio HCA-2.. not an extremely expensive amp, but the packaging that comes with it is like a padded briefcase... but of course that thing is only like 25lbs or so tops. I mean how much of the money are we really putting towards packaging when we buy amps? Probably a lot in some cases  

[Captain Humble]

I shipped a pair of Stratos Mono Extremes to Dolfan yesterday.

Stan Tracht shrink wraps all of his gear and has had great success with this approach.  The rational is that a heavy box sometimes catches the person lifting it by surprise.  The cardboard is slippery and package slips out of their hands.

Stan's feeling is that the plastic shrinkwrap provides handlers with a much better grip on the box so there is less chance of it slipping from their hands.

FWIW, Stan commented that the packaging Klaus ships the extemes in is acceptable.  So, the simple addition of shrink wrap around the current packaging would be a cheap, easy to store solution that might just tip the odds a bit in our favor.  I double boxed Dolfan's equipment at his request. Stan shrink wrapped them for me.

I've got my fingers crossed that Dolfan's extremes make the trip.



Jeff

[Mike D]

However, there can be an upside.  When UPS Demolished my Hales Revelation Three Speakers.  I threw a fit and demanded that someone from UPS come to my apartment immediately to inspect and document the damage.  After their visit UPS proceded to put me on a 6 month, 3 hours per week, run around until they finally paid me $250 more than what I paid for them originally...  And I got to keep the speakers.  They worked fine, they were cosmetically damaged enough to lower the resale value to $750 or so.  They had ripped the covers, bent the frame wires, chipped the wood on one corner, and tore holes in the boxes complete with FOOTPRINTS all over!!!  They tried sending me two checks for $500 per speaker.  I refused to cash them and stayed on the telephone complaining until they paid me $1,750.  I wanted $2,500 because Hales had gone out of business and there was no way I could replace them for the amount of money they wanted to give.  

Bottom line: 3 hours a week on the phone for six months talking to everyone's supervisor until I finally reached the top of UPS and their insurance company led to settlement.  If I did not have the UPS rep come to my home to inspect the damage, I would have received nothing.  This process led to more anger and frustration than money, but at least they will pay if you persist.

[lonewolfny42]

Captain Humble :

Stan's feeling is that the plastic shrinkwrap provides handlers with a much better grip on the box so there is less chance of it slipping from their hands.

Thats an excellent idea !! And the double box doesn't hurt either....it's a rough world out there !!! [/list:u]

[Dunedain]

Mike D:  I don't ever, *ever* want to have to go through anything like that with UPS.  Which
is why if we get a Dual Mono or Mono Extremes or whatever we are going to pay the extra
for Bax and that huge box.  We'll pay the extra $80 or whatever shipping.  I want an amp
and internal box for the amp in perfect condition, not to talk to some idiot at UPS for hours.
It's worth the price to us.