[Guan]

Hi everyone,

Thanks Jay for your succinct comments on our tests with the DeZorel. I clearly heard the differences with all those configurations (some which I've not tried myself) and it's always good to be have a second opinion!

Jay has a great ear for sound. He sat down to listen and very quickly discerned the changes in sound for each configuration. I was impressed as I followed his detailed comments of "more depth", "the piano is less forward", "double bass is tighter" etc etc.

But in the end I think we agree that the objective is to achieve a transparent, natural and non-fatiguing sound. This is what I believe the DeZorel successfully delivers. Even the most modest LF-P1 model. The more I use the DeZorel the more I become convinced that audiophiles won't know the full potential of their equipment/electronics until they supply their equipment with the cleanest power possible and use a good filter.

During our tests, depending on the quality of power/filtering fed to them, the LeAmps sound ranged from being flat, 2-dimensional and a little ragged to full bodied, natural and transparent.

It's also great that Jay's girlfriend heard and appreciated the differences.

Dejan, you just have to come over to Hong Kong to sample the culinary delights!  

Guan

[Jay S]

Jay has a great ear for sound. He sat down to listen and very quickly discerned the changes in sound for each configuration. I was impressed as I followed his detailed comments of "more depth", "the piano is less forward", "double bass is tighter" etc etc.

Thanks, Guan.  It was a fun, eye-opening listening session.  

About the double bass, we were listening for several subtle things - the depth of the tone, its tightness and also whether or not it sounded like a string or just a low tone (the last being pretty critical).  The DeZoral delivered.  

Let's also not forget that Guan had a dedicated line... I think we should all think very seriously about this as the improvement in sound quality was as significant as putting in a power filter!  And, yes, the improvements were additive!!  

During our tests, depending on the quality of power/filtering fed to them, the LeAmps sound ranged from being flat, 2-dimensional and a little ragged to full bodied, natural and transparent.

I think that this is why I loved my Le Amps when I had Sesha's CD-1 (tubes tubes tubes!) in my system -- the tubes supplied some dimensionality and smoothness to counter the nasty power coming in!

[Guan]

Jay wrote:

About the double bass, we were listening for several subtle things - the depth of the tone, its tightness and also whether or not it sounded like a string or just a low tone (the last being pretty critical). The DeZoral delivered

It's the subtle things you picked out that were eye-opening and ultimately very telling about the DeZorel's performance.

Jay wrote:

Let's also not forget that Guan had a dedicated line... I think we should all think very seriously about this as the improvement in sound quality was as significant as putting in a power filter! And, yes, the improvements were additive!!

Would you believe that there was an improvement moving from regular white 15A ac cable direct from the breaker box to Supra LoRad ac cable? Yessir, even more detail and lower noise floor. The electrician was wondering why I wanted to change out perfectly good ac mains cable to the Supra. But there you are...

[Jay S]

Would you believe that there was an improvement moving from regular white 15A ac cable direct from the breaker box to Supra LoRad ac cable? Yessir, even more detail and lower noise floor. The electrician was wondering why I wanted to change out perfectly good ac mains cable to the Supra. But there you are...

My building electrician is going to get a call....  

[DVV]

Would you believe that there was an improvement moving from regular white 15A ac cable direct from the breaker box to Supra LoRad ac cable? Yessir, even more detail and lower noise floor. The electrician was wondering why I wanted to change out perfectly good ac mains cable to the Supra. But there you are...

My building electrician is going to get a call....  

I'd hold that call, Jay. There are two reasons for a dedicated power line: 1) to cut the noise down, which is meaningless with a dedicated line filter capable of delivering tne goods, and 2) because you need a lot of juice and don't fancy resetting the home fuse every five minutes.

To check this out, go visit Guan once again, and do a simple test. Listen to whatever over the dedicated line, then switch to a normal line and listen again. I shall be VERY surprised if you hear any difference with the filter on line.

All I'm saying is that I think it's an unnecessary expenditure with a DeZorel filter on line as long as you don't need extraordinary amounts of power for some mammoth amps.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Tit for tat is fine - a power filter is worth an evening playing handyman.    

Good man - the right attitude. You stand a good chance of having a wonderful, fully balanced, very complemenyaty marriage.

Speaking of Chinese food, if you guys find yourself in HK (or Shanghai or Guangzhou or Beijing) I can certainly recommend some great restaurants.

I haven't had much of a chance to visit Eastern Europe yet (apart from a few days in Prague) but that's on my list of things to accomplish.  Maybe I can start with a power filter!  My girlfriend was amazed that the DeZoral was from Yugoslavia!

Indeed? Well, you ain't seen nothin' yet. I am about to finish a test of a locally made all tube amp, it should be up on my site by the end of this week. More surprises from Yugoslavia comin' up.

Cheers,
DVV

[Jay S]

I'd hold that call, Jay. There are two reasons for a dedicated power line: 1) to cut the noise down, which is meaningless with a dedicated line filter capable of delivering tne goods, and 2) because you need a lot of juice and don't fancy resetting the home fuse every five minutes.

To check this out, go visit Guan once again, and do a simple test. Listen to whatever over the dedicated line, then switch to a normal line and listen again. I shall be VERY surprised if you hear any difference with the filter on line.

All I'm saying is that I think it's an unnecessary expenditure with a DeZorel filter on line as long as you don't need extraordinary amounts of power for some mammoth amps.

Cheers,
DVV

Hi Dejan,

A prudent approach is always the right approach.  I may need to listen again at Guan's place.   But, on Sunday we did briefly try the A.R. Senior plugged into a normal outlet vs. plugged into the dedicated line, and heard a clear difference with the dedicated line.  

Guan may have had more opportunities to compare the impact of the dedicated line when the system is plugged into the A.R. Senior.  I think he has also experimented with different power cable for the dedicated line (Supra vs generic).  

Cheers,

- Jay

[Jay S]

Indeed? Well, you ain't seen nothin' yet. I am about to finish a test of a locally made all tube amp, it should be up on my site by the end of this week. More surprises from Yugoslavia comin' up.

Cheers,
DVV

Well, we look forward to it!!  What I love about the net is that it makes our hobby truly international.  I still remember when the entire audiophile world was defined by Stereophile.  I won't go into better vs worth but I can say that the world I was exposed to was a lot narrower before.  

Cheers,

- Jay

[Guan]

To check this out, go visit Guan once again, and do a simple test. Listen to whatever over the dedicated line, then switch to a normal line and listen again. I shall be VERY surprised if you hear any difference with the filter on line.

Hi Dejan,

If I remember, we did this at Jay's request but only using the LF-P1 with the LeAmps connected to them. The normal line is just an in-wall 5A line with 20 year old wiring. The 15A dedicated line is external with a choice of IsoPower 24K gold plated UK type sockets or Acme silver-plated US type sockets.

We plugged the LF-P1 into the normal line and then the dedicated line. There was a definite difference. To me, the dedicated line just sounded better. Jay, you might like to chime in with your impressions.

A tube amp? There's some great stuff coming out from your part of the world!
Did you have a hand in the design of this amp?

Guan

[Guan]

Actually, you're right Jay. We did use the AR Senior.

So our quick comparison of the dedicated vs. normal line was with the whole system plugged into the AR Senior.  

[Jay S]

I think of power filters as reducing the noise that ride along the AC wave.  What they can't do is deliver a constant voltage.  So, in a shared line fluctuations in voltage will occur depending on the load on the line.  With a DeZoral you get noise free power, but power that may fluctuate in voltage level.  Getting rid of noise in itself is a huge benefit, IMO, something that is hard to get right, so kudos to DeZoral for what they have accomplished.  I am no master of this subject, so let me know if this is right.

[Psychicanimal]

Would you believe that there was an improvement moving from regular white 15A ac cable direct from the breaker box to Supra LoRad ac cable? Yessir, even more detail and lower noise floor. The electrician was wondering why I wanted to change out perfectly good ac mains cable to the Supra. But there you are...

My building electrician is going to get a call....  

I'd hold that call, Jay. There are two reasons for a dedicated power line: 1) to cut the noise down, which is meaningless with a dedicated line filter capable of delivering tne goods, and 2) because you need a lot of juice and don't fancy resetting the home fuse every five minutes.

To check this out, go visit Guan once again, and do a simple test. Listen to whatever over the dedicated line, then switch to a normal line and listen again. I shall be VERY surprised if you hear any difference with the filter on line.

All I'm saying is that I think it's an unnecessary expenditure with a DeZorel filter on line as long as you don't need extraordinary amounts of power for some mammoth amps.

Cheers,
DVV

Dejan, I disagree with you on this one.  

 I think a dedicated line is more important than a filter, if I had to choose one or the other.  A dedicated line with a homemade parallel power strip using LN2 cryoed receptacles will give extremely good results, related both to noise and power delivery.  I have tried a hospital grade receptacle, an audiophile grade power cord and a PS Audio Juice Bar on a cheap Phillips DVD and an old NAD 7125 receiver and the improvements have been substantial.  The same with my Essence A/V Pro power strip w/ integrated power cord.  All that was used to help was a little 1.0 amp isolation transformer for the DVD player.  This test was done in a noisy apt. building.

Please read this thread I started in Audiogon:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1040961591&read&3&4&

I say like Deano taught me: multiple dedicated lines using THHN wire spec'ed for underground burial.  The insulation is attached better and the wire is more resistant to vibration.

I think of power filters as reducing the noise that ride along the AC wave.  What they can't do is deliver a constant voltage.  So, in a shared line fluctuations in voltage will occur depending on the load on the line.  With a DeZoral you get noise free power, but power that may fluctuate in voltage level.  Getting rid of noise in itself is a huge benefit, IMO, something that is hard to get right, so kudos to DeZoral for what they have accomplished.  I am no master of this subject, so let me know if this is right.

Jay, Deano sold me a 3000W ONEAC isolation transformer/ filter.  It works wonders in my system and it's not just the lowered noise floor.  Since it is 220V in/110V out it brings more juice to my system, more stability.  My power amp works *much* better, especially because I live in an apt. building.

I'm just sharing what I have found through months of experimenting.

[DVV]

I think of power filters as reducing the noise that ride along the AC wave.  What they can't do is deliver a constant voltage.  So, in a shared line fluctuations in voltage will occur depending on the load on the line.  With a DeZoral you get noise free power, but power that may fluctuate in voltage level.  Getting rid of noise in itself is a huge benefit, IMO, something that is hard to get right, so kudos to DeZoral for what they have accomplished.  I am no master of this subject, so let me know if this is right.

Exactly right! Just so. In fact, there's a 0.2 volts voltage drop across the DeZorel, as there must be across any passive device. It does absolutely nothing for your line voltage in terms of level, but it does clean it up real good without any adverse effects I noticed so far.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Dejan, I disagree with you on this one.  

 I think a dedicated line is more important than a filter, if I had to choose one or the other.  A dedicated line with a homemade parallel power strip using LN2 cryoed receptacles will give extremely good results, related both to noise and power delivery.  I have tried a hospital grade receptacle, an audiophile grade power cord and a PS Audio Juice Bar on a cheap Phillips DVD and an old NAD 7125 receiver and the improvements have been substantial.  The same with my Essence A/V Pro power strip w/ integrated power cord.  All that was used to help was a little 1.0 amp isolation transformer for the DVD player.  This test was done in a noisy apt. building.

Francisco, no matter how dedicated or how power your special line may be, it still carries the junk riding along your power lines, simply because that same junk is everywhere in the grid.

The best you can hope for is that it may reduce to a very small amount added junk from your own apartment, such as fridges, etc, but no more than that. All the general junk in the grid will still be there.

No construction method, no wire size, no winding, nothing will change that simple fact. You may get more juice though.

Cheers,
DVV

[Psychicanimal]

Francisco, no matter how dedicated or how power your special line may be, it still carries the junk riding along your power lines, simply because that same junk is everywhere in the grid.

The best you can hope for is that it may reduce to a very small amount added junk from your own apartment, such as fridges, etc, but no more than that. All the general junk in the grid will still be there.

No construction method, no wire size, no winding, nothing will change that simple fact. You may get more juice though.

Cheers,
DVV

Dejan,

You *know* I know all that...

Please read this thread I started in Audiogon:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1040961591&read&3&4&

The way I think about this has changed rather drastically...

[DVV]

Please read this thread I started in Audiogon:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1040961591&read&3&4&

The way I think about this has changed rather drastically...

So it was freaky. Fine. Now imagine how freaky it would have been if you added a decent line filter to all that.

Francisco, I have been in audio for well over 30 years. I have been professionally involved in FM radio and TV. I have seen and used equipment like you wouldn't believe, things little known outside pro studios, and when known, like Studer open reel decks, Nagras, and such like, people really have no idea just how those things work until they actually hear them. Then one's jaw drops onto the table.

In that time, I have seen and used many professional products, and power connectors among them. Serious things, capable of passing such power as is unimaginable in homes (100 amps, and at 220 VAC, too). I have experienced changes which did make a difference.

In all honesty, and you know I never shied away from speaking my mind, for better or for worse, I find it extremely hard to believe one socket made that much of a stunning difference - unless the one it replaced was such junk as is hard to describe. When electricity passes from one material (receptacle) to another (plug), there is always a resistance in between, compunded by using different materials if that is the case. There is no doubt that a high quality contact will make a difference as it will reduce this resistance, and what we need is basically a large contact area. The larger the contact area, the better the connection, because the smaller the resistance. From this, I deduce you had a really shitty receptacle and changed this to a quality one - of course you heard a difference, be very strange if you didn't. But a revealing difference? Oh boy, the old receptacle must have been sooooooome junk!

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Cheers,
DVV

[Psychicanimal]

Dejan, my Clear Image T4 by AudioPrism is more than just *decent*.  If I didn't get it for the ridiculous price I got it for there's no way I could have afforded to pay $2,400 USD for a brand new one...

Yes, it was a very bad receptacle--however, I just replaced the ACME  with a good Pass and Seymour receptacle and it's not sounding as good.  I'll have to conduct more listening tests.  I was in a hurry to get to work...

[Jay S]

My $0.02 worth is that I heard a clear and worthwhile difference when we switched from a normal outlet to Guan's dedicated line. I have say that he lives in a high-rise apartment building (as I do) and there may be a tremendous amount of noise in the line as a result.  Those of you lucky enough to live in less densely populated areas likely have better quality power.  

I also heard improvements when I changed my apartment's outlets to M&K's, though not to the same degree as described by Psychicanimal. Then again, the M&K's are likely not to the same level as the Acme silver plated outlets.  Note: Guan's dedicated line has Acme outlets.

[Psychicanimal]

Jay,

I have lived in apt. buildings and what I use is a 220V/110V isolation transformer.  That takes care of a lot of noise plus getting juice to my system.  I don't know if you can get 440V in Hong Kong apt. buildings, but if you can get a big stepdown transformer from a surplus house.

The ACME silver plated, Jena Labs cryo'ed receptacles are very good.  Cryo is the way to go for power delivery.

[Jay S]

Ok, all, I went to a Norah Jones concert last night    and didn't expect to have much free time afterwards but, by gosh, I managed to plug in the DeZoral LF-P1... and ended up listening for 2 hours till way past midnight!  

Oh my gosh.....

I heard it, folks, a very nice improvement to the overall ease and refinement of the sound of my system.  Tracks that I had a hard time listening to (e.g. Madonna's new Die Another Day, where her vocals seemed to have power hash overlaying the already electronic vocals) became clean, musical and very listenable.  We observed the same phenomenon at Guan's place (that time listening to Annie Lennox, which was unlistening when the amps were plugged straight into an ordinary wall socket).  

AND, the only component that I had plugged into the DeZoral was my Mensa DI/O dac.  Why?  Because unless I wanted to undo a lot of wiring I had to chose between plugging in the dac or plugging in the pre and amp.  Since my amp supposedly has very good built-in power filtration, I chose to plug in the dac.  My frame of mind right now is, imagine how much better the sound would be if my Cary (used as a transport) and Joule pre pre had a DeZoral filter upstream... (I'd also plug in the amp to see what happens).  

I'm going to listen some more, and also see what happens when I plug in my pre and amp.  But, at this point, I am on the path to order an Audio Reference Senior.  

Here's a very big thanks to Guan for lending me his LF-P1.    And, no, you're not getting it back too quickly!!!!!!      

By the way, my girlfriend was listening as well (some times with me on the couch, sometimes while surfing the net from the next room) and several times she commented "wow, that sounds great!"  And, "the power filter really makes a difference."  Finally, "its really worth it, you really should get one."    Of course, I the price I told her was for the Audio Reference Senior.