The people speak out, part II

nicolasb · « **on:** 21 Feb 2005, 03:50 pm »

This is more or less a reposting of the poll previously featured in the first "people speak out" thread. But since it's now been (more or less) confirmed that there will be a DSP upgrade for the SP1.7 some time in the next 4 or 5 months, I thought people who voted for that might like a second vote. I've also removed all of the more unpopular items from the poll, and have split up the "transport/dac" option so people can vote for one or the other (or both) if they wish.

Levi · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Feb 2005, 04:55 pm »

I would like to see a different 5ch amplifier. I have considered the Theta Dreadnaught II or the BAT VK6200 for their absolute transparency and warmth.

nicolasb · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Feb 2005, 05:05 pm »

Quote

I would like to see a different 5ch amplifier.

Yeah, well, you were outvoted in the previous poll. Live with it.

antt · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Feb 2005, 07:39 am »

Hey, nicolasb: Do I repeat the previous thread's post or just link to it?
Ummmm: I guess I'll do both. (Don't wanna hold up the thread)

Quote from: antt

Suggestions for upgrades to Bryston SP 1.7:

1) Add an Led to the Volume knob to mark it’s position. I have no idea why Bryston didn’t do this. Is it a violation of THX requirements? I currently have a Denon 5800 which doesn’t display the volume level on the TV screen either. I find it difficult to read off of the Denon display. From what I’ve seen of the SP 1.7, it’s display is about the same size as the Denon, but the SP uses a motorized volume control, so it doesn’t do the “hamster wheel” infinite turn and wouldn’t it just make the volume control look sooooo cool as well?
2) USB/RS232 port to computer for updates.
3) Mount the Control Voltage connectors on a plug which plugs into the unit. Those ultra-tiny screws are effective but an ultra-pain to work with. It would be nice to work with them in comfort then just plug em in.
4) Add XLR connectors for the rear channel(s).

NOTE: It look's like 5's been done and 6 is the reason for this new poll, so I deleted em from this quote.

gravy · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Feb 2005, 06:12 pm »

Darn, not much love for a uni-player out there!

Adz523 · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 01:43 am »

Quote from: gravy

Darn, not much love for a uni-player out there!

I don't really understand why we would want Bryston to put the R&D and its other resources (like $$) into anything video related such as a universal player, especially with the ground=breaking changes in video technology coming down the pike. I could see a state of the art CD player, but that's about it in terms of transports. There are amazing Universal players out there and the market seems saturated with mid to high end players. A needed hardware upgrade to the 1.7 is a no-brainer IMO.

antt · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 05:32 am »

Quote from: gravy

Darn, not much love for a uni-player out there!

Quote from: Adz523

I don't really understand why we would want Bryston to put the R&D and its other resources (like $$) into anything video related such as a universal player, especially with the ground=breaking changes in video technology coming down the pike. I could see a state of the art CD player, but that's about it in terms of transports. There are amazing Universal players out there and the market seems saturated with mid to high end players. A needed hardware upgrade to the 1.7 is a no-brainer IMO.

In answer to both:

gravey: As far as I can tell, you should only vote once in the poll. I'm all for a universal player by Bryston (it's my second choice). But for me, upgrades to the 1.7 come first.

Adz523: I agree with your logic. The reason why I'd want one is for Bryston's build quality, assuming they can put it into moving parts. (See my 2nd post on the previous poll thread).

nicolasb · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 09:53 am »

Quote from: antt

As far as I can tell, you should only vote once in the poll.

Everyone who voted in the previous poll should also vote in this one.

If the forum polling mechanism allowed second preference votes then they would be interesting too, but it doesn't.

Quote from: adz523

There are amazing Universal players out there and the market seems saturated with mid to high end players.

You reckon? The only high-end universal player I've heard much about is the Linn Unidisk (of which there are a couple of models, admittedly) - but that's too expensive for most people. There are a few other other mid-to-high-end DVD-A solutions (the Arcam DV27a and DV29 are fine examples) but they don't handle SACD.

BeeBop · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 11:05 am »

I am the one who voted for the transport - my thinking is that economics make the DAC a good deal packaged in the pre-amp. You get the casing and power supply already so you are only paying for the DAC. Also, eliminates a set of wires - not only good economics but better sound. The transport on the other hand is the most vulnerable part of a system due to the moving parts issues. If it goes, it can be replaced.

From Bryston's point of view (guessing here), standalone DACs are getting more and more common. However, there does not appear to be a flood of good transports to use with them. May be a good market niche here.

Just my 2¢

nicolasb · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 12:07 pm »

Quote

standalone DACs are getting more and more common. However, there does not appear to be a flood of good transports to use with them.

The thing is, though, a well-designed DAC (that's to say, one that buffers the incoming signal and re-clocks it) produces a sound that is pretty much independent of the quality of the transport - so is a good quality transport really necessary?

gravy · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 02:30 pm »

Quote from: Adz523

Quote from: gravy
Darn, not much love for a uni-player out there!

I don't really understand why we would want Bryston to put the R&D and its other resources (like $$) into anything video related such as a universal player, especially with the ground=breaking changes in video technology coming down the pike. I could see a state of the art CD player, but that's about it in terms of transports. There are amazing Universal players out there and the market seems saturated with mid to high end players. A needed hardware upgrade to the 1.7 is a no-brainer IMO.

I hear you Adz...the HD-DVD / Blu-Ray piece has me paralyzed right now. I guess my vote for a uni assumed the inclusion of these advancements before release, in effect combining the last two poll options!

My problem is that I want to buy a quality Uni, but don't give a hoot about the video portion. I've heard good things about the McCormack UDP1 in the $3000 cdn price point. Not cheap, but not $10K either. I could EASILY be swayed to change my vote to HW upgrade

I'd just *really* love to see the Bryston build quality and fanatical devotion to audio poured into a high-resolution audio player.

BeeBop · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 11:16 am »

Quote from: nicolasb

The thing is, though, a well-designed DAC (that's to say, one that buffers the incoming signal and re-clocks it) produces a sound that is pretty much independent of the quality of the transport - so is a good quality transport really necessary?

If the Bryston DAC is truly transport independent, then how did this item get on the list? Re-clocking may take care of jitter; how about wave shape? Does a transport that produces spikes instead of nice square waves sound as good?

Bryston seems to be saying that it is transport independent, but the only comprehensive professional review I have seen (from their web site) uses a Audio Aero Capitole as a transport(!). Has anybody tested this? Enquiring minds would like to know.

If this is indeed true, then I agree that a transport would be a waste of time. I could just go out and buy a half decent jukebox player.

nicolasb · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 01:03 pm »

Quote

If the Bryston DAC is truly transport independent, then how did this item get on the list?

The solution that existing Bryston DACs (e.g. BP26DA) use to reduce jitter is (IMO) not perfect, although it's a great deal better than nothing. To truly reduce jitter you would need to buffer a substantial amount of incoming data and reclock it. The Chord DAC64, for example, buffers several seconds of incoming data. (There's a downside to this of course - you can't use a DAC that buffers to that extent to handle a film soundtrack, or the sound and the picture would be out of synch.

)

I suspect that there is a level of jitter beyond which a DAC cannot fully compensate - and I also suspect that the amount of data that's buffered influences what that level is.

Quote

how about wave shape? Does a transport that produces spikes instead of nice square waves sound as good?

Isn't that effectively just another form of jitter? All that really matters is: do the 1s and 0s arrive accurately, and do they arrive at the DAC at the correct time? If there's some ambiguity between a 1 and a 0 then you will get actual read errors - but this (I believe) is quite unusual these days unless there's physical damage to the disc. (I remember an experiment done a few years ago that was an attempt to point out the implausibility of cable hyperbole in which someone used a wire coat hanger as a digital interconnect for a Dolby Digital stream, and got no bit errors at all).

So, if a poor wave shape actually causes the wrong interpretation of 1s and 0s, then yeah, that's a problem, but I don't think any transport is that bad! What can be a problem is that if a pulse has a sloping edge rather than a vertical edge then you can't tell exactly when (in time) it is supposed to start or end. But that (I think) is just another form of jitter.

thomaspf · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 11:35 pm »

That evaluation is spot on. An asynchronous sample rate converter will basically play back different samples every time you play back a track.

If you have a very jitttery input then there will be larger variation what you will get to hear from playback to playback. You will not see the jitter induced sidebands emanating from the converters since the conversion clock is stable but you will get quality differences between the transports.

Synchronous methods have the goal to make sure to convert unmodified samples and still take out the the jitter at the conversion. The three most used methods for this are

Deep buffering like in the Chord, word clock output from the DAC like the DCS dacs or Universal Audio 2192 etc. that can slave the transport (or in that case more likely a computer soundcard), or multistage jitter reduction via buffers and PLLs like the Weiss DAC1.

Cheers

Thomas

Adz523 · « **Reply #14 on:** 27 Feb 2005, 03:06 pm »

Quote from: nicolasb

You reckon? The only high-end universal player I've heard much about is the Linn Unidisk (of which there are a couple of models, admittedly) - but that's too expensive for most people. There are a few other other mid-to-high-end DVD-A solutions (the Arcam DV27a and DV29 are fine examples) but they don't handle SACD.

I must have missed this post.
I don't know - I go into music mega-stores and I see the multi-channel DVD-A and SACD sections shrinking at an ever rapid pace to a point where in the stores I've been in in NYC like Virgin Megastore, Best Buy, Tower Records, the multi-channel audio section is off to the side somewhere with a lot of dust collecting on it. Anyway, the Halcro Logic, Lexicon, and Integra Universal players are out there as well and I think they handle both formats.

nicolasb · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Mar 2005, 06:50 pm »

(bump)

C'mon, a few more votes in the poll, please.

KJ · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Mar 2005, 09:18 pm »

Quote from: nicolasb

C'mon, a few more votes in the poll, please. icon_smile.gif

Can I vote twice?

nicolasb · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Mar 2005, 09:40 am »

Quote from: KJ

Can I vote twice?

Only if you live in Florida....

BeeBop · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Mar 2005, 10:33 am »

Quote from: nicolasb

Quote from: KJ
Can I vote twice?

Only if you live in Florida....

Eric · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Mar 2005, 05:43 pm »

I have a dodson DAC whic is a pretty good one. I can hear a difference between transports, or even the DIP I use betweeen the transport and DAC.

Poll

After Bryston has released the SP1.7 DSP upgrade, what would you like to see it working on next?

The people speak out, part II