[mcgsxr]

I have been quite busy this past year, completely revamping a system that had been stable for 10 years.  I replaced the amp with Teacs, both later modded, I replaced the cd changer with a Nakamichi and Bolder Mensa, I replaced the speakers with DIY designs, using WR125’s, and just this last week, replaced my B&K pre/pro, as my 2 channel preamp, with a Hagerman Clarinet.

AC member mgalusha built it for me, something that I could not have done for myself – the last time I tried any soldering, I was building a set of IC’s that I read a design for.  I went out and bought an iron, and some solder.  I was working away with the tools, on the dining room table, when the iron started to roll off the table, plummeting towards the carpet, still plugged in… I saved it, by grabbing it, holding it briefly, and then dancing around the room, filling it with blue air!  It was then that I remembered those funny looking coil things that people seem to store their hot soldering irons in…

So many thanks to mgalusha for saving me from myself, and building this Hagerman Clarinet, in the carcass of an older Tara Labs preamp that I bought off Audiogon.

So, my system has evolved remarkably in the last 12 months, and is now fully comprised of gear either from, or modded by, manufacturers on this board.  I have found this a great place to learn and share.

I know that there are others that use a tube pre, with a digital amp, and some of them have been instrumental in my decision to pursue this angle.  Thanks to dmason, and lcrim for sharing their experiences with me, and helping me to understand other things I could do to improve my sound, affordably – no Larry, I still don’t have a balanced power device, but have begun saving – I may end up spending it on the Slim Devices Squeezebox, but do intend on a balanced power toy at some point.

Now, to the point, the tube pre is fantastic, and I am really stoked about the performance that my year of reading, researching, and investing is returning to me.  This is my first tube component, and in combination with the rest of my gear, I like how it makes almost all of my music more enjoyable.

The B&K is now relegated to HT duty, using the bypass that Mike installed in my Clarinet.

The tubes seem to bring an improved sense of depth, and emotion to the music, in my system.  I am hearing the inflection of the voice more, and do notice that space around reverb is more clearly evident.  I really think that the combo of the drive of the Bolder Teac, with the golden hue of the Clarinet, is working for me.  It reminds me of the colour of light at the end of a summer day, versus the colour of the light in the morning – also kind of like gold versus platinum, and how they shine.

If there is one negative about the tubes, it was when I first dropped it into place, I noticed that the music seemed to slow down some – almost like the musicians took time out from playing to share a fat smoke, and down a few shots, then come back to play – the installation of the JAZZ FOD that I bought from Bolder helped, as did the Herbie’s Halos.  NOS Tung Sol’s have helped too.  This has brought back some of the PRAT, but it is still relaxed – it is almost like I am hearing a jam session, rather than a performance, which those of you who have played, or hung around bands, will understand.

In any case, if you are out there, and have a digital amp, you owe it to yourself to get your ears on a tube pre – it does NOT have to cost you an arm and a leg, and I suspect that careful selection will bring wonderful results for you, as they have for me.

So, anyone else out there using a tube pre with a digital amp of any kind, and notice anything good?

Have a good one

[smargo]

The tubes seem to bring an improved sense of depth, and emotion to the music, in my system. I am hearing the inflection of the voice more, and do notice that space around reverb is more clearly evident. I really think that the combo of the drive of the Bolder Teac, with the golden hue of the Clarinet, is working for me. It reminds me of the colour of light at the end of a summer day, versus the colour of the light in the morning – also kind of like gold versus platinum, and how they shine.

If there is one negative about the tubes, it was when I first dropped it into place, I noticed that the music seemed to slow down some – almost like the musicians took time out from playing to share a fat smoke, and down a few shots, then come back to play – the installation of the JAZZ FOD that I bought from Bolder helped, as did the Herbie’s Halos. NOS Tung Sol’s have helped too. This has brought back some of the PRAT, but it is still relaxed – it is almost like I am hearing a jam session, rather than a performance, which those of you who have played, or hung around bands, will understand.

Im not sure how much the hagerman costs assembled/non assembled but i have used tube preamps in the $2,000-$3000 range and what i am using now is a creek obh22 passive preamp with remote that is amazing, at least with the clari t. It sounds as good as those tube preamps without the fuss. To me I get all the enjoyment and more than i have ever gotten from music in my 15 plus years.

I don't think tubes are as critical to use with a digital amp (at least with the clari t) than lets say a solid state amp. All the speed and resolution and air are there in abundance!

But enjoy

smargo

[mcgsxr]

smargo - your reaction to your Creek and Clari-T is exactly what I am feeling over here - satisfaction with a system - how rare is that!

The parts cost of the Hagerman is a little complicated, since it all began when I bought a Tara Labs preamp off Audiogon, and had it drop shipped to mgalusha, so that he could explore installing the DIY Cable remote kit.  Unfortunately, although in some ways fortunately, the pre died on the way there.  The seller was accomodating, and I ended up paying for the shell, so that I could build out a Clarinet.

I am picky about parts, and Mike helped a great deal, in helping me come up with a list of upgrades to the 1/2 kit he bought from Hagerman.  It is like an episode of "Pimp my Pre!".  Jensen coupling caps, some good Black Gates in the PS etc, and a point to point build, rather than the PCB included in the kit.

I guess all in, including the remote kit, the Tara carcass, and the parts to build the unit, it ran me around US$700 or thereabouts.  Tack on a reasonable amount to have Mike construct this, and I have a unit that serves me perfectly, built to spec.  I can use my Mosaic universal to control this, so that works out really well for me - 1 remote for 5 pieces of gear - helps in the WAF department... except she doesn't know how to use the remote... oh well, closer anyway!

As for how tubes play with SS amps, digital amps, and or tube amps, well this is my first foray into tube pre.  I did use the Teac with a passive (PS Audio) and I also used it with a SS pre (B&K pre/pro).

For me, the blend of the tubes with the tripath, IS the magic, a synergistic match that bests all my previous experiences with audio, in my room.  I have heard better elsewhere, but the end result for me, is that the ROI I am getting is perfect.

[Horizons]

For me, the blend of the tubes with the tripath, IS the magic, a synergistic match that bests all my previous experiences with audio, in my room. I have heard better elsewhere, but the end result for me, is that the ROI I am getting is perfect.

I think you are on to something mcgsxr. It was never my intention to use a digital amp and tube pre but I sort of fell into it. I am now using the JVC F10 to drive Maggie 1.6QRs. Since I am using a non-OS, filterless DAC with a passive output stage, I didn't feel that I had enough gain going into the JVC. So a kludged together a 12AX7 output stage between my DAC and the JVC. BAM! Wow, what a killer combo. Now I have enough gain to disable my Maggie xovers and finish my line level passive xovers which have a 2 db attenuation factor.  I digress...

A lot of people say that digital amps sound tubey but I don't agree. To me they sound razor sharp and ultra transparent, like a crystal clear lens on the music. If you match this up to cheap digital I don't think the results will be good. But tubes seem to bring out more of the best of digital amps but I'm not sure exactly why.

Imagine a receiver that combines a tube pre and a digital amp. That could be incredible.

[TheChairGuy]

Horizons,

The prior JVC model ES1sl is definitely 'tubey' in sound....it was the best tube gear I've ever heard; and I don't enjoy tube amplification in any form over the years.  I know folks do, but it never struck me as pleasant.  The ES1sl was pleasant as hell and had the type of sound that I would characterize as 'good' tube.

But, it's major failing was that it couldn't drive the Maggies (or other speaks or similar ilk).  The F10 is not tubey, not SS, but it mates up beautifully to the Maggies, I guess, if you and me are any represenative sampling of Maggie owners with the 1.6 and MMG between us.

[KT]

Mark,

The reaction you had after hooking up a tube preamp in front of your digital amp was the exactly the reaction I had when I first hooked up a tube preamp to a 47 Labs Gaincard. The sound was slowed somewhat, but there was a soul and musicality in the pairing that the Gaincard did not have by itself - rather, I should say there was a different kind of musicality, one that I much preferred.

The Gaincard by itself was clean, quick, musical, and had a hint of warmth, but it came off as a bit clinical to my ears. Adding a good tube pre balanced out the sound really nicely. I was pleased as punch at how good it sounded. Needless to say I tweaked the magic out of the preamp as I tried to get more of the good thing. There was a certain point, though, where it sounded unbelievably involving, if not as pacey as I would have liked.

I haven't tried it with my Sonic Impact, or any other digital amp, but I had always thought that the tube preamp in front might be my M.O. for the digitals, as well. I'll try it and see.

I'd like to hear other people's opinions on this, but I've often found that running a good preamp in front of a power amp results in more body, "balls," and weight to the music. This was at the cost of slightly diminished pacing and rhythm, but the control of the inner-dynamics seemed to be better with the tube preamp in there, as well. The sound also had a nice richness to it. The results were so nice with the Gaincard that I don't feel that my Gaincard experience is fully realized without a good tube stage in front of it.

I found this to be the case with several triode amps I had as well.

There's a strong case for running as few gain stages as possible, but I find that adding a good tube pre can add another dimension to the music that may make it more enjoyable to listen to. System synergy and personal preference rule here, of course.

Best,
KT