Help With Ceiling Treatment

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jtcf

Help With Ceiling Treatment
« on: 6 Mar 2020, 03:51 pm »
I asked this on another similar thread but decided to start my own because of lack of response.Same subject/different room:-)  Here is my dilemma:16 x 17 room,Tekton Impact Monitor speakers with the tweeters 4' from the 7.5' ceiling.Currently I have each corner trapped floor to ceiling with doubled 244s and a Monster trap centered on the front wall.Damping first reflections on the sides deadens the room excessively,so that's a no go.I installed one (leftover) 242 on the ceiling yesterday centered between the speakers and my listening chair to good effect.
How to proceed with further ceiling treatment?Two more panels that would stretch across that zone?Should they have diffusion included?Or maybe over the listening chair?I'm trying to tame the flutter echo without over damping.It's not possible to have treatments behind me on the back wall

bpape

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Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #1 on: 6 Mar 2020, 05:41 pm »
Try diffusion at the side wall reflections and 244's in the ceiling reflection zone.  with a 7.5' high ceiling your head is in all the height modes.  A couple of 244's directly overhead will help.

If you treat behind you, use something like Monsters but with the range limiter option so it's low/low mid absorption only and the mids and highs are still there.

jtcf

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #2 on: 6 Mar 2020, 05:49 pm »
Thank you!That makes sense.

Mike-48

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #3 on: 11 Mar 2020, 11:11 pm »
Try diffusion at the side wall reflections and 244's in the ceiling reflection zone.  with a 7.5' high ceiling your head is in all the height modes.  A couple of 244's directly overhead will help.

Bryan, Did you mean 244s at the ceiling first-reflection zone and also some directly over the listener? I'm not the OP but have a somewhat similar concern -- ceiling treatment with a low ceiling (7' in my case). This puts my ears exactly midway between floor and ceiling, as well as midway laterally.

jtcf

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #4 on: 12 Mar 2020, 12:02 am »
After emailing back and forth with John at GIK and taking the advice given here under consideration,I've been doing a little more experimenting with a couple of 242s I have on hand.John thought if damping the first reflection points on the walls deadened the room (in my case) that the same would be true for damping the ceiling since my ears are approximately right in the middle of everything.Hmm...
I tried #1. A 242 between me and the speakers
          #2  A second 242 over my listening position
          #3  Both 242s over my listening position

#1 had the best result so far #2 was too much
#3 did nothing surprisingly!I am just using cup hooks as to not mess up the ceiling too badly.
#1 did smooth the bass out a little more and helped get rid of most of the reflections.I concluded some light damping along with diffusion is needed between the speakers and myself to start with.I'm trying to decide whether to go with diffusion panels or 242s with scatter plates.Tomorrow I'll try two panels between me and the speakers and post updates for anyone interested.BTW the panels don't look bad at all :)

Mike-48

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #5 on: 12 Mar 2020, 08:08 pm »
I still suspect that, if the panels will be at all close to your ears, the Alpha 2D panels will be better than absorbers with scatter plates.

jtcf

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #6 on: 13 Mar 2020, 12:51 am »
Today's experimenting with the two 242s in between the speakers and myself was very successful.The most noticeable differences were instruments and vocalists were more distinctively outlined and placed in the soundstage,the highs were very clear,the pace seemed livelier.The sound overall is a bit drier,not as euphonic.Some of the 2nd harmonics being absorbed I think.
So right now I want to leave the panels where they are now and order two diffusion panels to move around in various spots.I'm still hearing some reflections but they are obviously not all from the ceiling unless off to the sides a bit or in the corners.I'm still surprised that overhead panels didn't help.I'll post some pictures after I straighten them up so they look presentable.And vacuum off the dog fur. :roll:

jtcf

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #7 on: 15 Mar 2020, 04:53 pm »



bpape

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Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #8 on: 15 Mar 2020, 08:07 pm »
Overhead you're trying to deal with height modes - not reflections or SBIR.  To get down into the range where they are you would need 2 panels and something thicker than 244's. You could use a membrane on them to limit their scope to just say 2-300 and down.

jtcf

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #9 on: 15 Mar 2020, 08:25 pm »
Such as a monster bass trap with a range limiter?Wouldn't that deaden the room excessively?I have one hanging on the front wall that I could move to see how it works.I'll give it try.

jtcf

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #10 on: 23 Mar 2020, 11:24 pm »
Well the Monster trap was overkill.Sucked all of the life out of the room.I went ahead and ordered 4 - 242 panels with scatter plates,the 2'x2' size.I can move them around and get them in just the right spots.I would have preferred diffusion panels but can't really remodel the living room to suit them.I'm optimistic this will help the 'presence region' smooth out.I'll post the results later for whoever is interested.

Mike-48

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #11 on: 24 Mar 2020, 04:15 pm »
[...]
I went ahead and ordered 4 - 242 panels with scatter plates,the 2'x2' size. I can move them around and get them in just the right spots. [...] I'm optimistic this will help the 'presence region' smooth out.I'll post the results later for whoever is interested.

Yes, please. Count me interested.

jtcf

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #12 on: 24 Mar 2020, 04:35 pm »
They won't be shipped until the middle of April but I will definitely follow with with what did and didn't work.

jtcf

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #13 on: 18 Apr 2020, 12:15 am »
Woot!The new panels shipped today and will be here Tuesday.Looks like I'll have something fun to work on indoors during the rainy days that are being forecasted.GIK has also been making masks from leftover fabric for donation.That plus delivery service delays had me expecting a longer wait so I am pleasantly surprised😊Hoping to learn a lot and get the room dialed in over the next couple of weeks.

JLM

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Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #14 on: 18 Apr 2020, 12:05 pm »
Unfortunately my listening room is directly below an outside spigot and the mud room.  Wifey has 3 times tried to flood me out. 

So ceiling mounted treatments aren't aviable option.   :(

jtcf

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #15 on: 21 Apr 2020, 10:17 pm »
Well day #1 with the four 2x2 panels with scatter plates is not at all what I expected!First I added one on each end of the existing ceiling panels and the clarity and as best as I can describe it - precision of each instrument and vocal was very apparent.Actually it is overkill.Some of them need to come down and moved elsewhere.I prefer a little bit more ambience and reflected sound.I moved the other two around on the side walls but no difference.When they were placed one on each side of the Monster trap on the front wall,Bingo!The soundstage spread wall to wall,really nicely,no nulls or 'holes'.So those are staying.I've tried regular panels in that same spot and they made zero difference.That was another surprise.

Next on the ceiling I'll try just one regular panel + the two small w/scatter plates.Then just the two small.



jtcf

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #16 on: 22 Apr 2020, 07:37 pm »
After trying pretty much every configuration the best result is with the four new panels stacked two on each side of the Monster trap on the front wall.The scatter plates are oriented vertically so they will diffuse horizontally.One 242 panel remains in the ceiling centered exactly between the speakers and myself.

The ceiling didn't need as much attention as I originally thought.One panel is perfect to damp reflections without overdoing it.The four panels w/scatter plates had little or no effect on the back or side walls.

The positives are a wall to wall soundstage,clarity,and some smoothing of vocals.The only caveat is it sounds like I'm sitting 'front row center' now instead of maybe row ten or so as I'm accustomed to.Different!Adjusting the speakers and different tubes will be in my future.I did take them all down at one point to remind myself what it sounded like before.Two songs later and back in they went,just so much better.

timind

Re: Help With Ceiling Treatment
« Reply #17 on: 22 Apr 2020, 08:38 pm »
Interesting thread. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I use a couple DIY 244 type panels on my ceiling at first reflection point. I believe they've helped quite a bit.