electrostatic vs nx-otica

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Zitoun

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electrostatic vs nx-otica
« on: 31 Jan 2020, 03:27 pm »
Hello,

As I have not listened to NX-Otica yet and try to understand the value of them, I have some questions regarding my taste and their performance.

To keep it short here is what I like in electrostatic Martin Logan esl10, feel free to comment how oticas perform in these areas.

- Clarity - very transparent sound with very natural decay and no box resonance

- dipole effect very realistic and filling the room with emotion

- resolution and speed on highs and medium are so intense that these speakers can render EDM music like no others (I know)

What I dislike

- Boomy sub that makes the room vibrate at a reasonable volume in a very well treated room

- the bass lacks in definition compared to the panel, we can't hear fine details in bass unless the volume is pushed to a level where the room vibrates.

- the voice sounds like it's coming equally from the speaker and the rear wall, I d better like having more forward voice projection

- look is very fragile for environment with kids and cat, and cost to fix the panel would be prohibitive.

Thanks for your feedback.



Tyson

Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #1 on: 31 Jan 2020, 04:02 pm »
Hello,

As I have not listened to NX-Otica yet and try to understand the value of them, I have some questions regarding my taste and their performance.

To keep it short here is what I like in electrostatic Martin Logan esl10, feel free to comment how oticas perform in these areas.

- Clarity - very transparent sound with very natural decay and no box resonance

- dipole effect very realistic and filling the room with emotion

- resolution and speed on highs and medium are so intense that these speakers can render EDM music like no others (I know)

What I dislike

- Boomy sub that makes the room vibrate at a reasonable volume in a very well treated room

- the bass lacks in definition compared to the panel, we can't hear fine details in bass unless the volume is pushed to a level where the room vibrates.

- the voice sounds like it's coming equally from the speaker and the rear wall, I d better like having more forward voice projection

- look is very fragile for environment with kids and cat, and cost to fix the panel would be prohibitive.

Thanks for your feedback.

NX-Oticas have better clarity and transparency across the board.  And bass?   Hahahahaha it's not even close - the NX-Ottica crushes the ML's in the bass for speed, impact, integration and emotion. 

Dipole effect is about the same on both speakers.  Actually now that I think about it, it's better on the NX-Ottica because they have dipole bass too and the ML speakers do not. 

To sum up - in the mids highs, there's a clear advantage to the NX-Ottica.  But in the bass it's not just "an advantage", the NX-Ottica actually crush the MLs in the bass area.  Servo subs are game changers.

JLM

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Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #2 on: 4 Feb 2020, 11:56 am »
"Filling the room with emotion"  What does that even mean?  Note that how the recording was produced helps define the intended soundstage and no recording, mixing, or mastering studio uses dipoles, so you're not getting the intended soundstage.  This goes back to the personal decision of wanting accurate reproduction or to be entertained. 

"Boomy sub..."  What sub is this?  Do you own this sub?  What "very well treated room" are you talking about?  If the room is "very well treated" how is it vibrating?  This is a common compliant of cheap subs - one note, lacks definition.  Have you tried repositioning, adjusting phase/volume? 

"Voice projection equally from speaker and (front) wall..."  Welcome to dipoles/open baffles.  What else would you expect?  There is no perfect speaker, so pick your medicine.

"...very fragile..."  Yep.  Had a 6 pound cat tip over a large monitor on a 12 inch tall stand (broke the binding post). 

maty

Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #3 on: 4 Feb 2020, 03:09 pm »
@Zitoun, you should to watch:

YouTube FAST BASS?! | Direct Servo Open Baffle Subwoofers! by Danny Richie

maty

Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #4 on: 4 Feb 2020, 03:14 pm »
https://positive-feedback.com/show-reports/lone-star-audio-fest-2019/3/

Quote
Michael Lundy Uilleam Audio and Douglass Connection

Uilleam Audio demo system included GR-Research open baffle and monitor speakers. Uilleam Audio is a custom build shop where Michael Lundy uses his considerable fabrication and finishing skills to individually build speaker systems for clients. These are primarily the designs from GR-Research with Michael open to others so long as the design rights are obtained or open sourced.

The big system was NX-Otica open baffle monitors atop dual 12" open baffle GR-Research/Rythmik Audio servo subs with A370PEQ3 sub amps. The sub and monitor together make one full range speaker which played down to 15Hz. These speakers had a curly figured cherry veneer.



http://gr-research.com/servosubkit4.aspx

Quote
This combination uses a pair of the SW-12-16FR woofers and the A370PEQ servo amp. The A370PEQ amp as a lot of features and flexibility that allows this system to do anything. Damping can be adjusted as well as the low end extension. There is even a one band EQ that allows adjust-ability of a narrow or wide band. Complete control over phase makes blending to main speakers easy as well...



http://gr-research.com/a370peq.aspx


Zitoun

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Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #5 on: 4 Feb 2020, 10:44 pm »
"Filling the room with emotion"  What does that even mean?  Note that how the recording was produced helps define the intended soundstage and no recording, mixing, or mastering studio uses dipoles, so you're not getting the intended soundstage.  This goes back to the personal decision of wanting accurate reproduction or to be entertained. 

True, I should use less poetry in my posts  :icon_lol:,

I meant having an enveloping soundstage, I simulate that by having my current speaker quiet close to the wall and orient them not directly at my hears but
1 meter from my shoulders. I can hear a central image and left right cues in tha sound. With the Martin Logan, it's coming from all directions.

The type of sound I like is the sound you hear in events and regardless of the studio recording technics.
I am not sure, but I don't think sound engineers think about dipole either, they certainly focus more at apple earpods and car audio system where 99% ofthe people will listen to music. If it was to reproduce a studio type of sound, then I'll buy studio monitors same brand and model than in studios, but I don't think I have the same goal in term of accuracy and sound analysis to tweak a recording, versus a listening experience that conveys a life and feeling of beeing at the event. Basically when I listen to speakers and it makes me more checking boxes than nodding my head, I am not really convinvced.

"Boomy sub..."  What sub is this?  Do you own this sub?  What "very well treated room" are you talking about?  If the room is "very well treated" how is it vibrating?  This is a common compliant of cheap subs - one note, lacks definition.  Have you tried repositioning, adjusting phase/volume? 

It was the SUB in the 15k Martin Logan, so I don't own it ... yet :), and the setup was done by the staff of the retailer, and when the sound was put at a high volume, the panels started to vibrate. And no we didn't try to adjust the Phase and volume, but I'll ask the guy to do it in my next audition. I,ll ask for a smaller model as well, I think the room was too small for that pair of speakers overall, so I'll keep you posted, I think the adjustment and fine tuning should be a good way to refine the sound.

"Voice projection equally from speaker and (front) wall..."  Welcome to dipoles/open baffles.  What else would you expect?  There is no perfect speaker, so pick your medicine.

Expeccting a miraculous silver bullet speaker solving all the earth problems  :green:, you are right, I'd choose clarity speed and openess then  8)

"...very fragile..."  Yep.  Had a 6 pound cat tip over a large monitor on a 12 inch tall stand (broke the binding post).

Oh my ....., I can only imagine your reaction in slow motion watching the scene !!!. BTW I have the cat and the 50 pounds little boy .... So ... RED FLAG for me ! 

Zitoun

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Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #6 on: 4 Feb 2020, 10:54 pm »
@Zitoun, you should to watch:
YouTube FAST BASS?! | Direct Servo Open Baffle Subwoofers! by Danny Richie

Thanks I already listened to this.
A lot of good information, but difficult to compare without a full review with other mainstream subs like JL Audio, REL etc... to have a fair comparison by speicificities.

https://positive-feedback.com/show-reports/lone-star-audio-fest-2019/3/

Good stuff, I read that too. but it does not compare the GR Stuff with other speakers like Martin Logan, all their reviews are ''positive'' which makes sense based on the website, but there are no comparaison and caveats that consumers should be aware of in an uncontrolled environment where you can'T necesseraly do what you want.

Zitoun

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 66
Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #7 on: 5 Feb 2020, 04:05 am »
NX-Oticas have better clarity and transparency across the board.  And bass?   Hahahahaha it's not even close - the NX-Ottica crushes the ML's in the bass for speed, impact, integration and emotion. 

Dipole effect is about the same on both speakers.  Actually now that I think about it, it's better on the NX-Ottica because they have dipole bass too and the ML speakers do not. 

To sum up - in the mids highs, there's a clear advantage to the NX-Ottica.  But in the bass it's not just "an advantage", the NX-Ottica actually crush the MLs in the bass area.  Servo subs are game changers.

Thanks that sounds great, what about resolution, speed, voice projection, and polar response (do you have to be on the sweet spot all the time)?
Thanks,

Tyson

Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #8 on: 5 Feb 2020, 04:16 am »
Thanks that sounds great, what about resolution, speed, voice projection, and polar response (do you have to be on the sweet spot all the time)?
Thanks,

NX Otticas are better in all those areas.  It's just a better speaker than anything Martin Logan makes. 

electronicsfanatic

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Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #9 on: 9 Feb 2020, 04:01 am »
I personally have not heard the NX-Oticas but, I have heard the Martin Logan ESL10.  I’m currently working on a set of upgraded X-Statiks (Sonic Cap and mill resistors) and will probably do a triple servo sub instead of the dual H-Frame.  Thought about doing some Solen/Erse inductors too.  Then I would have to put the crossovers outside the speaker with point to point contacts. I want to have that extra low end if needed so that’s why I might do the triple subs instead of the dual configuration.  I remember the ESL’s staging and I did fall in love with electrostatic sound.  The ESL10’s had all Cambridge Audio preamps and amplifiers.  It was my dream to have a set.  However, after hearing a set of Magic 521’s I fell in love with the open baffle method.  In my opinion it allows the listener(s) to hear anything 2 channel played and reproduced fantastically.  I feel my X-Statiks when I have everything dialed in will blow he Martin Logans out of the water.  The NX-Oticas will allow you to feel the drums and cymbals as if the set of instruments were playing in your room. The speed of the bass hits you on point (fast and articulate), the midrange sounds smooth/doesn’t linger, and the highs aren’t harsh at all.  Simply put the sound leaves the speaker, hits you where it supposed to, and doesn’t leave any after thoughts.  Yes OB is in a different realm to an electrostat.  I have two sets of them.  Just my thought and I hopes this helps you Zitoun.

maty

Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #10 on: 9 Feb 2020, 10:22 am »
I personally have not heard the NX-Oticas but, I have heard the Martin Logan ESL10.  I’m currently working on a set of upgraded X-Statiks (Sonic Cap and mill resistors) and will probably do a triple servo sub instead of the dual H-Frame.  Thought about doing some Solen/Erse inductors too...

I recommend that you add Miflex KPCU-01 0.01uF 600Vdc as a bypass to the serial capacitor of the closest tweeter to the woofer.

Yesterday, xrk971

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273524-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor-post6076154.html

Quote
After many hours of listening with the new Miflex caps, I have to say that I agree with Maty that they do make a difference. It is subtle but the improvement in soundstage and vocal presence is unmistakable. Definitely a worthwhile upgrade/add-on...

In my modded KEF Q100 5.25" coaxial, with two first order and very cheap components in the tweeter filter, aka one M.D.L. yellow cap and sand Bennic resistor and a coil air to the woofer, the improvement is great! After I changed the resistor with Mills MRA and a new improvement.




PS: The free service where I uploaded the images for almost 22 years has closed. Little by little I will be placing the images in old threads thanks to the hosting of this forum.

Zitoun

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  • Posts: 66
Re: electrostatic vs nx-otica
« Reply #11 on: 9 Feb 2020, 01:11 pm »
I personally have not heard the NX-Oticas but, I have heard the Martin Logan ESL10.  I’m currently working on a set of upgraded X-Statiks (Sonic Cap and mill resistors) and will probably do a triple servo sub instead of the dual H-Frame.  Thought about doing some Solen/Erse inductors too.  Then I would have to put the crossovers outside the speaker with point to point contacts. I want to have that extra low end if needed so that’s why I might do the triple subs instead of the dual configuration.  I remember the ESL’s staging and I did fall in love with electrostatic sound.  The ESL10’s had all Cambridge Audio preamps and amplifiers.  It was my dream to have a set.  However, after hearing a set of Magic 521’s I fell in love with the open baffle method.  In my opinion it allows the listener(s) to hear anything 2 channel played and reproduced fantastically.  I feel my X-Statiks when I have everything dialed in will blow he Martin Logans out of the water.  The NX-Oticas will allow you to feel the drums and cymbals as if the set of instruments were playing in your room. The speed of the bass hits you on point (fast and articulate), the midrange sounds smooth/doesn’t linger, and the highs aren’t harsh at all.  Simply put the sound leaves the speaker, hits you where it supposed to, and doesn’t leave any after thoughts.  Yes OB is in a different realm to an electrostat.  I have two sets of them.  Just my thought and I hopes this helps you Zitoun.
That helps me a lot, thanks for your contribution.
After multiple listening session, I realized that speed and clarity is one of the most important criteria for me.

My fear is that when I do stress test with classical baffle, they can't even compete in speed with electrostatic.
I will also try soon with Maggie's. I don't know if that changes a lot with open baffle, but I don't know how to compare that speed and definition in the specs, if you have an idea that will be awesome.

FYI my stress test tracks for speed and resolution are
Tundra - Squarepusher https://youtu.be/uD3vr7_Al88
St Michel - Aphex twin https://youtu.be/Z7jr_uFNvVg

Basicaly the speed is so intense than 10k plus box speakers can't even approach the details you can hear on a good pair of headphones. Especially 2 ways speakers, they are overwhelmed by that much information/mili second, and you end up hearing noise instead of distinct sound forming music on a very unstructured rhythmic.

Warning, Keep kids and elders away from these tracks they ll jump to the roof... .