Omega SAM and subwoofers

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Kalali

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Omega SAM and subwoofers
« on: 29 Jan 2020, 05:27 pm »
Folks,
I’m contemplating building a pair of these subwoofers to complement my SAMs:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-10-reference-series-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7091
They’ll be driven by this amplifier:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sa1000-subwoofer-amplifier-rack-mountable--300-811

Any thoughts on how (or if) they’ll blend well?
Thanks.



rollo

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #1 on: 29 Jan 2020, 08:13 pm »
Folks,
I’m contemplating building a pair of these subwoofers to complement my SAMs:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-10-reference-series-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7091
They’ll be driven by this amplifier:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sa1000-subwoofer-amplifier-rack-mountable--300-811

Any thoughts on how (or if) they’ll blend well?
Thanks.

   Talk to Louis.
charles

Doody

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #2 on: 30 Jan 2020, 02:39 pm »
I wrestled with this for months (with CAMs not SAMs). Net-net, I decided that I trusted Louis with my speakers, so I'd trust Louis with my sub. I ended up with a Deep Hemp sub and have never regretted it - at a lower price-point than any of the other options I was considering. Been SO happy with the result.

Good luck.

Doody

pstrisik

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #3 on: 30 Jan 2020, 02:46 pm »
You need a fast sub to match Omegas.  I doubt the Dayton kits would provide that.  I would look at Louis' subs or something by Rythmik (what I use).

Kalali

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #4 on: 31 Jan 2020, 01:15 pm »
Thanks for the input. I picked the 10" kits assuming they'd be fast enough to keep up with the Omegas and using a pair would provide a more uniform bass. I'll take a closer look at the Rythmic servo models but would like to keep the budget around $1K and prefer passives to allow me pick an amplifier to better match my tube preamp's 600Ohm output impedance. Omega subs would be ideal but sadly a bit over my budget for a pair. I'll ask Louis if a pair of passive models would be closer to my budget.

Kalali

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #5 on: 31 Jan 2020, 02:32 pm »
pstrisic, which Rythmic model do you have and how do you have it hooked up, e.g., line level or speaker level?  Looking at the Hypex UcD amplifiers specs used in their subs, they have an extremely low input impedance of around 1,800Ohms which technically rules out a line connection from most if not all tube preamps.
Thanks in advance for any insights.

pstrisik

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #6 on: 31 Jan 2020, 03:27 pm »
pstrisic, which Rythmic model do you have and how do you have it hooked up, e.g., line level or speaker level?  Looking at the Hypex UcD amplifiers specs used in their subs, they have an extremely low input impedance of around 1,800Ohms which technically rules out a line connection from most if not all tube preamps.
Thanks in advance for any insights.

I have a pair of F12's.  I have them connected with line level out of my Dennis Had Inspire LP-2 pre.  I run them in stereo mode.  I've had these for about 6 years, prior to the Hypex amps.  I do have a pair of F8 mid-woofers with hypex amps.  I've connected them the same way: line level from the preamp.  Both perform admirably.

I haven't looked lately, but Brian has always offered amps with speaker level inputs if you prefer that.

.....Pete

Kalali

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #7 on: 31 Jan 2020, 04:46 pm »
Thank you, appreciate it. I sent a note to Rythmic and asked the question about the impedance matching. On paper, a tube preamp - mine is an Aric Audio Unlimited with 600Ohm (@ 1KHz) output impedance, should be a very poor match driving such low input impedance amplifier. The fact that you're driving two subwoofers, I assume from the second parallel output of the preamp, and probably driving another amplifier from the other output, even if its a tube amplifier with normally high input impedance, should "theoretically" pose issues.
The fact that you're not experiencing any sound quality issues is an indication of how theory and measurements translate into real life.
I saw the F8 and it looks very interesting, especially given their size. One could use them as the "stands" for the SAMs given they have almost the same footprint....Of course with proper isolation and decoupling.
Thanks again.   

pstrisik

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #8 on: 31 Jan 2020, 09:44 pm »
Thank you, appreciate it. I sent a note to Rythmic and asked the question about the impedance matching. On paper, a tube preamp - mine is an Aric Audio Unlimited with 600Ohm (@ 1KHz) output impedance, should be a very poor match driving such low input impedance amplifier. The fact that you're driving two subwoofers, I assume from the second parallel output of the preamp, and probably driving another amplifier from the other output, even if its a tube amplifier with normally high input impedance, should "theoretically" pose issues.
The fact that you're not experiencing any sound quality issues is an indication of how theory and measurements translate into real life.
I saw the F8 and it looks very interesting, especially given their size. One could use them as the "stands" for the SAMs given they have almost the same footprint....Of course with proper isolation and decoupling.
Thanks again.   

Voila! (SAM HO's with Rythmik F8 mid-woofers and plate amps in custom boxes Louis artfully made to match the SAMHO's)



Probably considered poor practice, but working fine for me:  Inspire amp from one pair of preamp outputs.  The other output pair split and sending signals to mid-woof and sub-woof.  All is doing fine. 

However, I am thinking of returning to have the mids and subs fed by my DAC in preamp mode and the Inspire pre only feeding the main amp.  That would give more flexibility in the relative levels between the three elements.  I will set the levels separately in sub amps, mid amps and preamp while controlling overall volume with the DAC. 

........Pete

Kalali

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #9 on: 1 Feb 2020, 01:09 pm »
Pete, it looks absolutely fantastic! Thanks for the picture. The current model F8 appears to have two drivers and is 20" tall, perfect height for SAM. I'll need to reach out to Louis and ask about the cost if were to order a pair of passive units and see how far I need to extend my budget.  My brother in law lives 10 minutes away from Norwalk and about hour and half drive from where we live. I could stop by Louis's shop on the way to their house.  :green:   

JLM

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #10 on: 1 Feb 2020, 03:22 pm »
Sorry but the ideal locations for main speakers and subwoofers do not coincide!  Mains should be away from walls to avoid bass boom and improve imaging.  Subs work best near corners (and in multiples).  Suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" to learn how speakers behave in-room. 

FireGuy

Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #11 on: 1 Feb 2020, 06:56 pm »
Sorry but the ideal locations for main speakers and subwoofers do not coincide!  Mains should be away from walls to avoid bass boom and improve imaging.  Subs work best near corners (and in multiples).  Suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" to learn how speakers behave in-room.

JLM - I do agree there is an optimum to be found for speaker and sub placements according to Mr. Toole.  Unless you can build a room specific for loudspeaker behavior - you have to work with what you have.  In case of pstrisik's config, if it works, then it works.  I admire the aesthetic of this particular set up.

Moreover ... according to your paradigm; tower speakers that have built in powered subs should be overlooked in favor of separating the bass from the mids and highs.

Thanks for plugging Floyd Toole's work - I thoroughly enjoyed his book.

pstrisik

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #12 on: 1 Feb 2020, 10:56 pm »
Sorry but the ideal locations for main speakers and subwoofers do not coincide!  Mains should be away from walls to avoid bass boom and improve imaging.  Subs work best near corners (and in multiples).  Suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" to learn how speakers behave in-room.

Sorry, but those aren't subs below the mains.

doggie

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #13 on: 2 Feb 2020, 04:23 pm »
I use a pair of SVS sealed box subs with my Super Alnico High Output XRS. They work well and were not expensive.

Plan A would still be to have Louis make a pair though. He will match them perfectly and you need "fast" subs to keep up with his drivers.

@pstrisik. Not subs????


pstrisik

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #14 on: 2 Feb 2020, 04:58 pm »
I use a pair of SVS sealed box subs with my Super Alnico High Output XRS. They work well and were not expensive.

Plan A would still be to have Louis make a pair though. He will match them perfectly and you need "fast" subs to keep up with his drivers.

@pstrisik. Not subs????

No, Rythmik F8 mid-woofers in Louis' custom cabinet.  I have a pair of Rythmik F12 subs behind them - you can kind of see in the photo.

pstrisik

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #15 on: 2 Feb 2020, 05:02 pm »
Thank you, appreciate it. I sent a note to Rythmic and asked the question about the impedance matching. On paper, a tube preamp - mine is an Aric Audio Unlimited with 600Ohm (@ 1KHz) output impedance, should be a very poor match driving such low input impedance amplifier. The fact that you're driving two subwoofers, I assume from the second parallel output of the preamp, and probably driving another amplifier from the other output, even if its a tube amplifier with normally high input impedance, should "theoretically" pose issues.
The fact that you're not experiencing any sound quality issues is an indication of how theory and measurements translate into real life.
I saw the F8 and it looks very interesting, especially given their size. One could use them as the "stands" for the SAMs given they have almost the same footprint....Of course with proper isolation and decoupling.
Thanks again.   

I will modify my opinion and answer after making the switch from splitting the signal from tube preamp to taking it directly from DAC.  I don't know if it has to do with impedance matching or just the reduction in signal gain.  I can now turn them up more for the same volume level I had before.  The sound from the midwoofers is more dynamic as a result.

......Pete

JLM

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #16 on: 2 Feb 2020, 06:06 pm »

Moreover ... according to your paradigm; tower speakers that have built in powered subs should be overlooked in favor of separating the bass from the mids and highs.


Yes, according to Toole full range speakers (or those with mid-bass add on cabinets) should be replaced with separate subs and monitors.

doggie

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #17 on: 2 Feb 2020, 07:46 pm »
"I will modify my opinion and answer after making the switch from splitting the signal from tube preamp to taking it directly from DAC.  I don't know if it has to do with impedance matching or just the reduction in signal gain.  I can now turn them up more for the same volume level I had before.  The sound from the midwoofers is more dynamic as a result.

......Pete"

Is your volume control done via the DAC which provides for that ie. remote or pot? 

Just curious how you control and synchronize/balance volume now between monitors and mid-bass.
« Last Edit: 2 Feb 2020, 10:15 pm by doggie »

pstrisik

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #18 on: 2 Feb 2020, 10:49 pm »

Is your volume control done via the DAC which provides for that ie. remote or pot? 

Just curious how you control and synchronize/balance volume now between monitors and mid-bass.

Yes, the DAC has a preamp mode with analog volume control.  So, I have separate level controls for the mains, mid-woofs, and subs with overall level controlled by the DAC (either by remote or with Roon on my tablet).

......Pete

Kalali

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Re: Omega SAM and subwoofers
« Reply #19 on: 3 Feb 2020, 01:24 pm »
Pete, do you use a separate high pass crossover control for the F8 mid-woofers, and if so, where do you set the frequency cut-off? I'm just curious how you blend the mid-woofers with the SAM XRS since they seem to have a fairly broad frequency overlap and the mid-bass from the SAM XRS should already be quite good. In my room, my "regular" SAMs only need a touch of weight in the 30Hz-50Hz range hoping to fill in with subwoofer(s). My system is for music only and I mostly listen to jazz, blues, and folk music, and occasionally classic rock.