PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon

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BradJudy

PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #20 on: 23 Feb 2005, 01:55 pm »
I'm in too.

Al Garay

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PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #21 on: 23 Feb 2005, 09:11 pm »
I'm in as well.

Mike, can you e-mail me your address and phone number?  I will be staying at the Summerfield Suites by Wyndham - Denver Tech Center.

Looking forward to meeting all of you.

Al

mgalusha

PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #22 on: 23 Feb 2005, 09:30 pm »
Sounds good.

I'll PM everyone the directions and phone number. Al, the hotel you're staying at is only a couple of miles away, couldn't be a lot closer. :-)

Mike

Al Garay

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PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #23 on: 23 Feb 2005, 11:41 pm »
Perfect.

Al

mgalusha

PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #24 on: 24 Feb 2005, 04:54 am »
I've sent PM to Phil, Al and Brad. I think everyone else that's coming knows the way. Tyson, let me know if you the directions link again. ;)

Mike

Tyson

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PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #25 on: 24 Feb 2005, 04:55 am »
*Grins sheepishly*

No, after 5 times, I finally remember how to get there :)

mgalusha

PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #26 on: 24 Feb 2005, 04:59 am »
Sorry, couldn't resist. Looking forward to seeing you. I did pick up a bottle of Scapa, so you can enjoy some of that if you like. I know it's not peat moss like some of the Scotches you drink, but it is pretty nice.  8)

PeteG

PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #27 on: 25 Feb 2005, 03:59 pm »
Hope you guys have fun, to many hours at work this
week for me to come.

Let us know how Philip’s Series 2 MT sound.

Pete

PEB

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PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #28 on: 26 Feb 2005, 02:19 am »
Can someone bring an RS SPL meter?

mgalusha

PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #29 on: 26 Feb 2005, 03:47 pm »
I have two, one of which has been modified to correct the low frequency problems. It's still not much good above 10K but it's not bad below that.

mgalusha

PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #30 on: 27 Feb 2005, 02:37 am »
I've talked with Wayne and he's bringing his 24" stands and Jerry has a pair that measure in at 28.5 that I believe he's bringing as well. Looks like we'll be well covered in the stand department.

My wife has volunteered to prepare some sandwich and veggie plates, so there will be something to eat. We have several types of diet soda and lemonade. I have a couple varieties of scotch but if you want beer, you'll have to bring your own. I'm just not much of a beer drinker.

I think I have enough chairs for everyone. :) We don't have a ton of room but we should be OK. As of now I believe the following folks are going to be here:

Phil Bamberg
Al Garay
Tyson
Wayne (Bolder Cables)
Jerry (Turk)
Brad Judy
and of course little (yea, right) ole me

My amps are currently high passed at 70hz, so the subs should integrate nicely with the BESL speakers. We'll of course try them both ways unless Phil has any objections.

See you all tomorrow. The phone number is in the directions, call if you get lost.

Mike

PEB

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PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #31 on: 27 Feb 2005, 03:14 am »
Quote
I have two, one of which has been modified to correct the low frequency problems. It's still not much good above 10K but it's not bad below that.


Actually they roll off above 5-6k.  But I'm just interested in performing a bass dial-in with it.  

I'm pleased to see you have stands, subwoofer, and 70Hz high pass amps.  What a convenience for a demo!  See you tomorrow at noon.

BradJudy

PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #32 on: 27 Feb 2005, 04:18 am »
I mentioned to Mike that if anyone is interested I could bring either a pair of Aurum Cantus L2SEs or a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s.  I should have mentioned that earlier, but I can always bring them to a future DAM GTG as well.

Tyson

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PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #33 on: 28 Feb 2005, 02:26 am »
Thought I would post my impressions of the get together this afternoon.

First let me say it was very nice to meet Phil and Al.  I believe I am a good judge of people and these two guys were great.

I'll try to keep this post as brief as possible.  I'll say right upfront that living with large fullrange speakers with dynamics and transparency like the RM40's has probably ruined me for life when it comes to bookshelf sized speakers.  I say that because I've heard a LOT of bookshelf speakers in my time and the 3 we had there today were all quite good.  But I couldn't live with any of them.  I'm simply too used to the effortless sound I get from my 40's.

I say all of the above as a means of providing context to my comments and also to make it perfectly clear they all 3 were very good for their size and price class.  Each speaker had it's own character and strenghts and weaknesses, and I'll try to elucidate each in turn.

BESL Series 2 MT
We started listening to the BESL Series 2 MT.  I had actually had them at my home for about a week before the meet.  I had them setup on some impromptu stands at my home with the tweeters on the outer edge (the tweeters are off center, and can be positioned either to the inside, or the outside, edge of the speakers).  I don't have a sub in my 2 channel system, and to be honest the 2 MT's did not sound very good this way.  Since they are sealed they have pretty serious bass roll off in my acoustically very large living area.  This made them sound thin on the midrange, too emphasized on the lower treble and rolled off on the very top end.

So, I came in to the listening session a bit biased against them because of how they sounded at my place.  But after getting them on some good speaker stands and integrating a pair of good subs with them, the sounded MUCH better.  From below average to quite a bit above average.  But I still thought they sounded somewhat diffuse and with too much empahsis on sibilants.  But they were now souding like high end monitors and were a lot more satisfying.  They were a little rolled off at the very top of the frequency range, in that room ambiance came through only up to a point, and cymbals sounded more metalic and zingy than shimmering.  And ultimate transparency in the midrange was good, but not the best I've heard.  Integration with the sub was good, but not the best.

It pretty much stayed that way through several people's audition of their own CD's and music.  That is, until Phil switched the speakers so that the tweeters were now located on the inner edge of the speakers.  Whoa, that was a huge improvement!!  The diffuse sound was now almost completely gone and the imaging and presence of the music was a lot more solid.  Even the integration with the subs was a bit better because the speakers sounded a lot fuller and warmer in the lower mids/upper bass.  These now went from "good" speakers to "quite good" in my opinion.  I was really shocked at how much better they sounded now than when I had them.  Just goes to show you that room, setup, and synergy with your equipment is so, so, so important.


Aurum Cantus
Next up was the Aurum Cantus that Brad brought over.  Overall I thought these had an advantage in that the tweeter gave a lot more air and detail to the highs, and the woofer was nicely integrated with it.  In fact they were very coherent, which is pretty rare to hear in a woofer and ribbon tweeter based speaker.  Unfortunately I also thought they were too bright and fairly nasal sounding.  This might have been caused by the fact that we plugged the ports on these speakers in order to integrate them with the subs, so perhaps un-plugged they would have sounded fuller and more pleasing.  But we didn't try them that way so I can only report on what I actually heard.


VMPS 626R
Last up was the VMPS 626R's w/FST and (I believe) auricaps.  We also ran them without bybees at first, then with bybees much later.  Honestly I liked them the best of the 3 speakers there, but remember that I have the RM40's at home, so this is the "type" of sound that I'm accustomed to, so take this all with a grain of salt.  

I did think they were the smoothest and most transparent speaker we heard today, and the most coherent (listening to "My Love" by Diana Krall, I thought her vocal inflections were tracked much more closely by the bassist when the 626R's were used).  

On the downside the sweetspot for best imaging is truly only 1 person wide (although tonal balance, dynamics, and transparency stay remarkably good even off axis).  I actually tuned the 626R's to my preferences, and they sounded good by the very end, but that wasn't until the very end of their demo that they sounded best.  Most of the demo I had the tweeter a bit too hot, which gave them a bit of a nasal balance and gave cymbals too much presence in the musical mix.  On the very last cut we listened to, they finally had a good balance, but I think it was probably too late and everyone had already formed their opinion of them.

BESL again...
Finally we hooked up the 2 MT's again to listen to them with the Bybees inline.  I thought it was again a marked improvement.  With the tweeters in the inside I actually thought they were a bit too warm sounding, a tiny bit "fat" in the mids, and overall a slight bit grainy sounding in absolute terms.  With the Bybees inline I thought the lower mids tightened up nicely, the upper mids and lower highs smoothed out nicely, and as a result the very high frequencies were a bit more audible.  I thought they had a much tighter "focus" to the sound, and the slight amorphous quality I mentioned before completely disappeared.  But that view was certainly not unanamous and I hope others post their viewpoints to the contrary.  Overall with the Bybees I thought the 2MT's were a lot closer in overall quality to the 626R's, only missing out on the higher level of transparency and coherence that the 626R's showed.  By this time both speakers had really distanced themselves from what we hear of the Aurum Cantus speakers.

Back Home
So, coming back home I put on my test track on my RM40's just to get a contrast to what I'd been hearing all afternoon.  Ah, there was the incredible transparency, effortless dynamics, perfectly integrated bass, and incredibly nuanced presentation that I've become spoiled by.  I'm not saying all this to "brag" about my speakers, but only to point out that my criticisms of the speakers above are only from within this context.  If I'd been living with other speakers (like a Dynaudio bookshelf, or B&W, or several others I won't bother naming), then those criticisms would not exist for me.  Even as it is, I thought that the 2 MT and the 626R's both did far, far more right than they did wrong.  In other words their strengths far outweight their weaknesses.

As a final note about the speakers, what I heard today from the Series 2 MT makes me very curious about the Series 5 MTM because the woofer in the 5 MTM I know is very, very transparent, and having dual woofers by itself will tend to increase transparency and dynamics, which were 2 of the main areas I thought the 2 MT could be improved upon.

As a final note about the meeting, thanks to Mike for hosting it, but the rest of you bozos have seriously questionable taste in music (except for Brad)!    :lol:

lonewolfny42

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« Reply #34 on: 28 Feb 2005, 02:56 am »
Thank you Tyson. Would this be the system used for the speaker comparison (Mike's) ? Thanks ! ....Any photo's ? :)

Tyson

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« Reply #35 on: 28 Feb 2005, 02:58 am »
Yep, although Mike has a different preamp now.

Al Garay

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Al's long summary ... late in the night
« Reply #36 on: 28 Feb 2005, 09:23 am »
Thanks Tyson for the kind words. I feel I'm a good judge of character as well and you guys are a bunch of characters :D

It was a real pleasure meeting all of you and Phil Bamberg. Mgalusha and Mary are wonderful hosts who welcomed me as if we had known each other for years. With the good food and drink, good company and good music, it is not a tough way to spend a Sunday.

Well today was a good day to appreciate in person the excellent system that mgalusha has assembled. In spite of the initial challenge getting the correct positioning and fine-tuning, all the systems sounded good in their own right.

Unlike Tyson, I'm not ready to declare VMPS 626R as the clear winner. I would need more time listening to them with the tweeter turned down (it was drawing too much attention to itself and not letting the music play with ease) to become more familiar with their strengths. I did listen enough to change my impression of VMPS speakers. I can appreciate the magic that Tyson and other VMPS owners revear. They are like a fine sports car or a custom 1911 that needs a lot of fine tuning to reach their full potential. They can do voicing and soundstage very well. They can do loud and they can do soft. On the minus, there is the narrow sweet spot and the feeling of the experience that you are still listening to speakers. Good speakers but speakers none the less.

The Aurum Cantus wins the best looking award. They look like expensive speakers made by a high-end manufacturer. The sound was good but not as engaging as the rest. I think Phil described it best by saying the voicing sounded as if the singer was singing from their head as opposed to generating a full-body sound by singing from their core. We did not spend as much time with these as we did with the rest.  It seemed we were more eager to go back to the VMPS and BESLs. And Brad had to go. Excellent music selections Brad! :rock:

Speaking of the BESLs, I did not have high expectations. After all, these are Phil's entry level speakers not using the top-of-the line Seas Excel drivers and intended to be more forgiving of user's electronics and varied taste in music... meaning it could rock & roll at high SPL levels without compression.  What a surprise it was when Phil switched the position of the speakers. All of the sudden the center image was locked in. No more fuzzies. The highs were more balanced (I thought it did get hot when playing "The Mummer's Dance" from Loreena McKennitt). The voicing is what drew me into the music the most. The vocals and instruments had a full-body that I dont' always find with my beloved 1801s.  The soundstage was very large (tall, wide and deep). And the sweet spot was wide, perhaps not as wide as the 1801s which are incredible.  The mids coming out of the Seas CA18P had much more detail than I anticipated.  Perhaps not the transperancy expected from a magnesium coned Seas Excel. But I thought the transperancy was every bit as good as the 626R especially when we had the correct alignment and removed the Bybees. Again, the BESLs were more similar to the type of systems I prefer.

No one system is right for everyone. And that's a good thing. VMPS has many devoted fans. I believe BESL would have as many loyal customers if more people were aware of Phil Bamberg's skills and experience. (If only he had VMPS's marketing resources....) The Series 2 MT demonstrates to me that Phil knows what he is doing.  Listening to him explain his design philosophy shows that he is very passionate about applying good engineering principles using scientific methods to optimize the design of cross-overs, covering every detail of the cabinet design and the testing to ensure voicing is correct. He gives personal attention at the start of the process in learning your needs to match the right system and then at the end as he assembles and tests every system to ensure the quality is right.

I like the flexibility his designs offer -
* Being able to upgrade from Series 2 to Series 5 using the same cabinets.
* Being able to upgrade from passive to fully-active.
* Being able to mix and match Series 2, 2.5 and 5 as you wish for full home-theater system that also a reference grade audio system.  

Well, the VMPS are not for me.  The BESLs are too my liking. And I will drink the Kool-Aid while I make plans to audition the Series 5 in my house.  Now, what do I tell my wife? Guess what the mail man delivered?

Thanks Denver! :beer:

Al

BradJudy

PEB (BESL) coming to Denver area again soon
« Reply #37 on: 28 Feb 2005, 04:48 pm »
I'll just chime in quickly to send out a big thanks to Mike and Mary for having us in their home and providing food (thanks to Al as well on the food).  For those who haven't had the chance to meet him, Mike is a really nice guy and very bright as well.  

Thanks to Phil for sending out the speakers and coming by to listen with us and talk a bit about audio.  

It was good to hear these speakers (I also got a chance to hear Mike's Vandys for a bit before we started rearranging everything).  I had never heard any BESL speakers before and it was the first time I have heard the VMPS 626Rs (although I had heard the RM40s and RM30s).  

Probably the most interesting part of the experience was hearing the changes in the BESL and 626R when played with.  I didn't do much listening to the BESLs after the tweeters were swapped to the inside, but those who were listening seemed to really respond to the change.  There were a few rounds of tweaking to the 626R that certainly changed the sound (adjusting the mids and tweets, then later adding bybee filters).  I didn't listen much after the bybees were added, but definitely saw how the 626Rs could be tweaked using the l-pads to an individual's tastes.  

It's tough for me to declare a 'winner' as these were definitely different creatures.  Once all tweaked out, the 626R sounded very nice, but also ring in at more than $2k (the version we heard had FST, Auricaps, and megawoofer if I recall correctly).  The BESLs were just under $1k and should be considered by those shopping the $1k monitor area.

lonewolfny42

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« Reply #38 on: 28 Feb 2005, 04:58 pm »
Tyson :
    Quote
    As a final note about the meeting, thanks to Mike for hosting it, but the rest of you bozos have seriously questionable taste in music (except for Brad)!
    [/list:u]
      Can you list some of the music that was used in your comparisons.....thanks !! :) [/list:u]

    Tyson

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    « Reply #39 on: 28 Feb 2005, 05:11 pm »
    Ani DiFranco - Up, Up, Up, Up, Up, Up
    Use this for imaging and smoothness.

    Prokofiev - Piano Concerto #1
    Use this for transparency, microdynamics, and macrodynamics.

    Those were my selections.  I'll let everyone else chime in with their selections.