Tyson's Line Force Review

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Jaytor

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #40 on: 8 Jan 2020, 05:21 am »
Wilson doesn't make line source speakers. The multiple drivers in a line array act as a line source as long as the acoustic centers of the drivers are close enough which they are in the Line Force. A line source behaves differently than multiple point sources. The wavefront from a transient signal propagates as a line in the vertical direction (assuming you are measuring/listening more-or-less from the middle of the line array) instead of as a cone like you'd get from a point source.

Wilson does time alignment between drivers operating across multiple frequency ranges, all acting as point sources. This helps ensure that signals from two drivers that are covering the same range near their crossover point are arriving at the same time which provides a smoother frequency response and eliminates any time smearing.

On the Line Force, this would be analogous to lining up the wavefront from the tweeter array with the mid-range array (by looking at the impulse response from the two driver arrays) which can be done with crossover design and fine tuning by adjusting toe-in.

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #41 on: 8 Jan 2020, 03:09 pm »
Thanks Jaytor.

Yes, I know Wilson does not make Line Source speakers. But the do offer physical time alignment adjustment on some models.

I know in practice, ie: listening to line sources that distance differential of the speaker to the ear doesn’t sound like initial attack is smeared,etc, but was wondering why is all.

Thanks for sharing.

Rocket Ronny

HAL

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #42 on: 8 Jan 2020, 07:07 pm »
Line Array speakers create a cylindrical wavefront that is entirly different to a point source speaker.  It only looses 3db with distance doubling.  Energizes the room and listening position like a wall of air not an expanding sphere.  Best in room response of any speaker I have heard.  Why I built a 6x12 ob servo sub to go with my speakers.

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #43 on: 9 Jan 2020, 04:51 pm »
Quote
this is the best speaker I've heard in my life.  And not by a little.

Tyson. Would that also include:

-GT Audio Works Planars.   https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7UrZTATLStM

-Leonardo Planars      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=si5xObVKkBA

-Alsyvox Tintoretto     https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yjWK8u02Mfg


Rocket Ronny

Tyson

Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #44 on: 9 Jan 2020, 05:12 pm »
Tyson. Would that also include:

-GT Audio Works Planars.   https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7UrZTATLStM

-Leonardo Planars      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=si5xObVKkBA

-Alsyvox Tintoretto     https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yjWK8u02Mfg


Rocket Ronny

Yes.  The Super 7 is better than those speakers, which makes the Lineforce MUCH better than them.

The only thing I've heard in the past few years that's even close to the Super 7 is the large King Sound planar magnetic speakers.  If the King Sound speakers had used a better bass solution, they might have even surpassed the Super 7.  But again, nothing really has come close to the Lineforce, IME.

bernardo

Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #45 on: 9 Jan 2020, 06:30 pm »
Where did you audition the GTA3.1R speakers with bass towers? I don’t recall ever seeing them in any RMAF show reports. In what way do the Super-7s better their performance? 

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #46 on: 9 Jan 2020, 06:51 pm »
GT audio has showed a few times over the years, but not with those base towers. Looks like Dannys subs to me.

I would be interested in what ways the Super 7s were better as well. They all have the ribbon, or planer, behind 3/4" thick baffle like the Apogees did. I found their imaging to be, individual images big and flat. I think due to diffraction.

The King is an electrostatic. I heard the King Prince and was shocked at how transparent a window into the sound they had. Best electrostat I heard that way, although it had other big limiting issues, such as power needed, danger of pannel arcing, ultimate volume, bass suckout at 200 hz, etc. This transparency into the sound is what I hope Danny's Mini or LS can do, but don't know.

Rocket Ronny

rollo

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #47 on: 9 Jan 2020, 07:16 pm »
  The Inner Sound OB subs are Danny's design.  Except enclosure finish. For a LOT less money from Danny. 23K for GTA now. 7K for subs.


charles

Tyson

Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #48 on: 9 Jan 2020, 07:24 pm »
GT audio has showed a few times over the years, but not with those base towers. Looks like Dannys subs to me.

I would be interested in what ways the Super 7s were better as well. They all have the ribbon, or planer, behind 3/4" thick baffle like the Apogees did. I found their imaging to be, individual images big and flat. I think due to diffraction.

The King is an electrostatic. I heard the King Prince and was shocked at how transparent a window into the sound they had. Best electrostat I heard that way, although it had other big limiting issues, such as power needed, danger of pannel arcing, ultimate volume, bass suckout at 200 hz, etc. This transparency into the sound is what I hope Danny's Mini or LS can do, but don't know.

Rocket Ronny

The King III is not an electrostatic it's a planar magnetic speaker.  That's the one I was referring to.

Where did you audition the GTA3.1R speakers with bass towers? I don’t recall ever seeing them in any RMAF show reports. In what way do the Super-7s better their performance? 

Oh don't get me wrong, they sounded good, just not as good as the Super 7.  I didn't hear the GTA with the bass towers so take that into consideration.  But the version without the bass towers had problems other than the bass that bothered me.  It was the somewhat aggressive and metallic sound they had, combined with rather diffuse imaging.  They had good depth of soundstage but in other ways they sounded a bit flat. 

On the other hand, the GTA and the Alsyvox beat everything in the looks department.  In person they are dead sexy.

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #49 on: 9 Jan 2020, 07:29 pm »
Thanks, appreciated.

King Sound   Electrostatic.
http://www.kingsaudio.com.hk/

The GT audio metalic sound I can understand. I could pick that up slightly on the AV Show Reports. Diffuse imaging totally aligns with what I would expect given the 3/4" front baffle.

Rocket Ronny

Tyson

Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #50 on: 9 Jan 2020, 07:42 pm »
Thanks, appreciated.

King Sound   Electrostatic.
http://www.kingsaudio.com.hk/

The GT audio metalic sound I can understand. I could pick that up slightly on the AV Show Reports. Diffuse imaging totally aligns with what I would expect given the 3/4" front baffle.

Rocket Ronny

One of the things that makes the Super 7 so special is the absolutely seamless transition between the midrange and highs.  Plus the fact that the tweeter and mids sound literally identical to each other give it a coherence I've not heard in any other speaker.  If you really want to test it, grab a disc with a soprano singer and listen to when they really lean into a note.  MOST speakers will have either discontinuity or breakup.  The Super 7 has neither.  The Lineforce can do the same thing, but on an even larger scale. 

Of course the discontinuity I'm talking about will show up in other places too, but less obvious than the soprano singer going full tilt.

Or as I like to joke - when they lean into the note, does it illustrate the passion of the music or does it make you want to leave the room.  If it's the latter, then the culprit is likely the speakers. 

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #51 on: 9 Jan 2020, 08:27 pm »
Great points.

It's always important to understand what's important to listener, so when they say something is good, or not, it can be put into context.

Rocket Ronny

Tyson

Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #52 on: 9 Jan 2020, 09:08 pm »
Great points.

It's always important to understand what's important to listener, so when they say something is good, or not, it can be put into context.

Rocket Ronny

Exactly.  Like obviously most people don't listen to soprano singers.  But I promise that the same type of issue will be occurring with a violin or flute or sustained note on a piano or girl with a guitar singing or the upper range of an electric guitar - the distortion/breakup will make those things sound slightly off and it'll be hard to pinpoint why.  So even if you don't listen to soprano singers for enjoyment, it's a great test because it lays this particular weakness of most speakers brutally bare.

mlundy57

Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #53 on: 9 Jan 2020, 09:18 pm »
Exactly.  Like obviously most people don't listen to soprano singers.  But I promise that the same type of issue will be occurring with a violin or flute or sustained note on a piano or girl with a guitar singing or the upper range of an electric guitar - the distortion/breakup will make those things sound slightly off and it'll be hard to pinpoint why.  So even if you don't listen to soprano singers for enjoyment, it's a great test because it lays this particular weakness of most speakers brutally bare.

Your soprano singer is a dead giveaway for me. If it makes me cringe and my ears hurt, no matter how good the rest is, I won't touch it. Turns out this is why I never liked opera. Now, especially with my OB speakers, I actually enjoy listening to opera. As long as I can't understand what they are saying

Tyson

Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #54 on: 9 Jan 2020, 09:22 pm »
Your soprano singer is a dead giveaway for me. If it makes me cringe and my ears hurt, no matter how good the rest is, I won't touch it. Turns out this is why I never liked opera. Now, especially with my OB speakers, I actually enjoy listening to opera. As long as I can't understand what they are saying

That's funny - I never liked opera (or any classical singing) until I got the Super 7s.   :lol:

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #55 on: 9 Jan 2020, 09:37 pm »
Wait a minute.  RR posted a link to the GT Audioworks video from Capfest 2019. I just happened to be in the room when that was made late on Sunday afternoon, sitting right behind the camera guy.  There was no metallic anything.  That system sounded amazing and was completely in control. It pressurized what was probably a 50ft wide, 40ft deep, 10-12ft tall room with zero strain or glare. Don't judge a system by what you heard on YouTube. Honestly, I don't know why people do that with their products.  GTA is a small company like Danny's and did have an issue once when at RMAF getting into a smallish room with unfamiliar vendors.  That happens. I'm sure Danny has regretted sharing a room with someone whose equipment didn't do his speakers justice. 

Are the Super 7 better than the GTA?  I don't know, but I'm sure they're different.  I can tell you that GTA system, at that show, was outstanding. Far more coherent, natural, dynamic, and transparent than systems across the atrium that were 4x the cost.

The Kingsound King III model is electrostatic, not planer magnetic, and does sound wonderful. 

Tyson

Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #56 on: 9 Jan 2020, 09:49 pm »
Hi Rusty - I believe you that they sounded great at Capfest.  I heard them at RMAF and can only go off what I heard there.  Hopefully they make it back to RMAF in 2020 and bring that same level of performance.  I'd love to hear it as I really love when small companies knock it out of the park.  Which seems to happen more than with large companies, oddly enough. 

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #57 on: 9 Jan 2020, 10:59 pm »
Thanks for sharing Rusty.

The metalic issue was from an older GT video, and I don't make decisions by youtube videos, ha. I was actually seriously considering buying them when they were 4 grand. I still would think the imaging would be flattened by the nature of the construction. This was one of the main reasons I did not go for them at the time.

Are they using Danny's servo woofers in that system?

The speakers sure look great though. Would love to hear them.

Rocket Ronny

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #58 on: 10 Jan 2020, 02:20 am »
Apparently, Danny designed the subs.

  The Inner Sound OB subs are Danny's design.  Except enclosure finish. For a LOT less money from Danny. 23K for GTA now. 7K for subs.


charles

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Tyson's Line Force Review
« Reply #59 on: 10 Jan 2020, 02:57 am »
Thanks. Yes their speaker is quite costly now. Still good value probably compared to the other high cost speakers out there.

Rocket Ronny