Tube amps, not integrated, to try

Tyson · « **Reply #21 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 04:32 am »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 3 Jan 2020, 04:17 am

PP tube amps have harmonics similar to SS amps.

True - but one thing I've learned in all my years in this game is that topology doesn't always tell you everything.

For example, would you believe that my solid state First Watt Burning Amp 3 is more lush and beautiful sounding than my Elekit Japan 300b SET? No? Well it is! Haha I wouldn't believe it either but it's true. I took it to Danny's and he completely agrees with me.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #22 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 05:05 am »

How many Watts have your Burning Amp 3 ?
It need a preamp ?
Iam thinking in me.

Tyson · « **Reply #23 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 05:56 am »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 3 Jan 2020, 05:05 am

How many Watts have your Burning Amp 3 ?
It need a preamp ?
Iam thinking in me.

It's 25 watts but it has a 300 watt power supply, so it's able to handle transients very well. It does need a preamp.

The parts that come with it are decent but I strongly recommend using Jupiter or Miflex caps on the input board and better quality RCA jacks and Binding posts and better hookup wire. I've heard all the First Watt designs at this point and IMO the Burning Amp 3 (BA3) is the best if you are a tube lover like I am

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #24 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 06:10 am »

How, thanks for that first hand report, I appreciated

Why the BA amps are not in the First Watt site ?

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #25 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 06:28 am »

Your ears confirm that no NFB are better sound,
even in SS amps, the BA-3 are free NFB.
The BA-3
For various rational and irrational reasons, amplifiers without negative feedback loops are of interest to many DIY amplifier builders. With the BA-1 and BA-2 we already have output stages which operated without loop correction, but they both have a front end which uses a local feedback loop to improve the performance, and in this regard their performance is pretty conventional, if simpler than most.

So I think it would be fun to make the BA-3 front end also without the feedback loop and mate it to follower output stages (BA-1 and BA-2 output stages for example) to form complete amplifiers without feedback loops. Of course we have to give up the ease with which loops flatten out the response and lower the distortion. We have to make a circuit which has an intrinsically linear response - good enough for us to be happy with the quality of sound.

daledeee · « **Reply #26 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 01:47 pm »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 3 Jan 2020, 03:36 am

How many Watts do you need?
Do you make a point in have a SET?
Your current speaker are permanent?
Or you change speakers frequently?

I currently have a 20 W amp and it will play unbelievably loud. 40 watts or less in size for any tube amp.
I do not change out speakers. These speakers are very desirable and I will keep them
I don't know enough between single ended vs push pull to know which one is better for my setup.
The speakers I have are dynamic, revealing, loud if needed, The speakers are Klipsch DIY type. Similar to Cornwall in size.
I have adopted a simple signal path. Not using a preamp currently so not sure if that limits my amp selection.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #27 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 05:58 pm »

PP are just more powerful, SET are more sound quality.
Came to mind the Gubernator SE a 47W GK71 SE amp from Anatoly, made in USA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skCCd4O-fVQ
https://www.facebook.com/Wavebourn

Rusty Jefferson · « **Reply #28 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 07:12 pm »

FRM, it isn't a good idea to make generalizations like that. There are HUGE problems with SE(T) amplifiers. It's not that one type is right and the other wrong, but a preference, and tradeoffs.

Rusty Jefferson · « **Reply #29 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 07:22 pm »

If the OP is happy with his Class A (presumably) SS amp, it's possible he'd get the smoothness he's after and not loose bandwidth and woofer control switching to a high output impedance SET amplifier, by inserting a Lampizator tube dac as a source. I've heard a couple horn based systems transformed by the addition of a Lampi.

daledeee · « **Reply #30 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 08:12 pm »

The Lampi costs more than my amp and speakers! LOL. This hobby goes like that in a hurry.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #31 on:** 4 Jan 2020, 12:57 am »

Quote from: Rusty Jefferson on 3 Jan 2020, 07:12 pm

FRM, it isn't a good idea to make generalizations like that. There are HUGE problems with SE(T) amplifiers. It's not that one type is right and the other wrong, but a preference, and tradeoffs.

I forgot to mention IMO. For a FR driver I need a SET.

SET Man · « **Reply #32 on:** 4 Jan 2020, 04:14 am »

Quote from: daledeee on 2 Jan 2020, 04:44 pm

Hi,

I currently have horn speakers. Crites speakers similar to Klipsch Cornwall and are quite efficient. I am toying around with trying a tube amp since I have heard this is a match made in heaven. Here are some i found:

What about the Chinese knockoffs? Reisong is an example. Nobsound
Decware
Dennis Had
Dynaco. Several versions available. Van Alstine, Will Vincent, tubes4hifi.
Quicksilver

I would like to keep this under $1K but I know several of the above are higher. I am tempted to try the Reisong at less than $400. Let me know if I should stay away from these. I am wondering if these are blatant copies of other's designs with service and repair an issue.

What are the sound differences between SET, pentode, no feedback, self bias? Do different tubes and designs have different sounds? I generally believe less is better when it comes to signal path but I think 20 watts is plenty based on the amp I have now. My speakers lowest impedance is 6 ohms My solid state amp is Class A and highly regarded(Schiit Aegir). It does not sound harsh but as I said a tube experiment would be fun. Thanks in advance.

Quote from: daledeee on 3 Jan 2020, 01:47 pm

I currently have a 20 W amp and it will play unbelievably loud. 40 watts or less in size for any tube amp.
I do not change out speakers. These speakers are very desirable and I will keep them
I don't know enough between single ended vs push pull to know which one is better for my setup.
The speakers I have are dynamic, revealing, loud if needed, The speakers are Klipsch DIY type. Similar to Cornwall in size.
I have adopted a simple signal path. Not using a preamp currently so not sure if that limits my amp selection.

Hey!

OK, looking back at your original post and this one. It sounds like your speakers with high efficiency and if the impedance is relatively flat and don't dip below 6 ohm should work fine with SET amps.

With other type of tube amps aside. Let's talk about SET amps here. I'd say it worth a try with SET of 8 watts and more. I think the lore of SET is the beauty of midrange frequency spectrum. I tend to listen to a lot of female vocals and I find that SET amps really great on this. I'm not saying SET can't do bass or high, they can do that pretty well too depending on how well is the amp and speaker work together.

Of course SET is not for everyone. But as I said before your speakers should work fine. Although, I think your problem is your budget of $1K. To do SET amp right cost a lot of money. In SET amp, not counting the cost of tube which can cost a lot if you go for fancy handmade tubes... most of the time the most expensive parts in the amps are the two output transformers. So, I can't think of anything SET amp right now new or used for $1K that I would personally drop my money on. Yes, I know there are lots of SET amps out there for less on eBay, most from China. I even saw 845 amp for around $1K there! Make me scratch my head and wondering how did they do it for that price? Yes, I know the labor cost is a lot less there. Still how is the quality of the output transformers used in that amp and how reliable are these amps, we are talking about 800-1000V here!

Anyway, if you're DIYer, maybe you could put together a SET amp yourself, maybe from kit.

Buddy

jMelvin · « **Reply #33 on:** 4 Jan 2020, 10:10 pm »

I went down the SET path a couple of years ago and opted for a Decware SE84UFO, which is right at your budget limit. Mine is paired with Omega Super 3i Monitors and a DeepHemp 8 Subwoofer. SET done right? Dunno, but I've been pretty happy since and have no desire to upgrade.

jmpsmash · « **Reply #34 on:** 14 Jan 2020, 05:55 pm »

That's a tough budget to work with. SET tends to be more expensive, not only due to the pricey tubes, but also pricey larger output transformer needed. The sound, however, is more tubey with a rich amount of even harmonics.

Maybe you can look into a used set of Line Magnetic. Even so, you are looking at PP amps with that budget.

There is actually one set on ebay right now. EL84 @ 3W. maybe or may not be enough.

Many mentioned Dennis Had Inspire. I tried it. I wasn't impress though the price is quite affordable if you look for used, so there is a good value there. They used to be very affordable but the price is going up every time he release something. Now amps are almost double their original release price for similar amp.

daledeee · « **Reply #35 on:** 15 Jan 2020, 12:35 am »

Thank you for the advice. If $1000 is too low, then where is a good price point and what are some of the brands? I have seen the new and improved Dynaco's and they are a proven design. I know that is not a SET. I have to go to the big towns to hear something. Many of these tube amp brands are mail order so even more difficult to hear one. I have never spent much time on this until now so forgive me if I ask dumb questions. Auto bias or not? Extra money for tubes=better sound to justify expense?

richidoo · « **Reply #36 on:** 15 Jan 2020, 12:58 am »

You're not using a preamp, and you need 20-40W, sounds like a perfect situation for one of the many excellent pentode integrated amps. I know you said no integrated, but why?

The Cary SLI-80 is a great sounding tube amps designed by Dennis Had at his peak. It is very good quality, and often available for $1600 used, and that value will hold long enough for you to try it out for almost free. I bought one in 2005 for 1800. Wish I still had it. You can run it in triode mode, or ultra linear, you can run many different kinds of tubes. Contrary to the name, it only makes 50W with KT88. But the EL34s it makes 30 very beautiful watts. It uses some of the best and most musical sounding tubes like 6922 inputs, 6SN7 driver tubes, twin tube rectifiers, and 6550/KT88/EL34/6L6 power tubes, large transformers, built like a battleship, remote volume and mute. Quicksilver, Manley, and others make similar high quality integrateds. I would not buy noname chinese amps from ebay, ymmv.

Tube quality matters. You need good sound and you need them to last, and not make noise and hold their bias for a very long time. Cheap tubes are never worth it. I prefer tubes made in Russia by the American company called New Sensor. They have many brands but my favorite is their top line called Gold Lion.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #37 on:** 15 Jan 2020, 02:03 am »

I would give serious consideration to this Will Vincent organ amp. Meets your power and budget requirements.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis99bdf-baldwin-tube-amplifier-fifty-watts-by-will-vincent-no-better-amp-for-this-price-anywhere-tube

I have owned this exact model for several years, minus the fancy face plate. Will knows what he's doing. It is superb sonically and very gutsy....much more so than the specs would indicate. I currently use it on my JMR Twins speced at 90 db and 4 ohms. It is very musical and has great drive. Very reliable and dead quiet. And I mean QUIET -- I have never heard any tube gear as quiet. Has performed great on other pairings I've tried: Omega, and driving the top on some biamped large floorstanders (Vaughn Triodes and Sunny H2W10). Even driving these large speakers full range it was great.

Good luck in your search.

daledeee · « **Reply #38 on:** 15 Jan 2020, 04:09 am »

I guess I wrote no preamp to hold the cost down(Why do i try?). I had a passive pre in the system. I took it out and adjusted the volume with the music ap. Old and lazy I guess. Will Vincent, Dennis Had and Bob Latino are well respected in the tube area. I saw one of the Baldwin amps the other day with a football shaped front?

I also have a Sunfire Reference preamp that needs a little work. I might try it just to see what happens.

I have to admit the last two postings are making me seek out some of these and try them! LOL

jmpsmash · « **Reply #39 on:** 15 Jan 2020, 04:35 am »

Quote from: daledeee on 15 Jan 2020, 04:09 am

I guess I wrote no preamp to hold the cost down(Why do i try?). I had a passive pre in the system. I took it out and adjusted the volume with the music ap. Old and lazy I guess. Will Vincent, Dennis Had and Bob Latino are well respected in the tube area. I saw one of the Baldwin amps the other day with a football shaped front?

I also have a Sunfire Reference preamp that needs a little work. I might try it just to see what happens.

I have to admit the last two postings are making me seek out some of these and try them! LOL

if you factored in the cost of the pre, you can find used Line Magnetic 518IA for a bit more than $2k (probably $2300). 22w pure SET. absolutely top quality.