Volume vs DB level

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mix4fix

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Volume vs DB level
« on: 27 Dec 2019, 08:36 am »
I got hold of a Denon AV receiver. The only AV receivers I ever owned in the past were Pioneer. I will include my Marantz integrated in the conversation. When you turn up the volume, they display the DB level. They go from negative to zero to even to positive.

Why do different devices sound more or less louder at the same supposed DB level?

Dynky

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Re: Volume vs DB level
« Reply #1 on: 27 Dec 2019, 08:57 am »
this extract from Denon's website explains it quite clearly

JLM

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Re: Volume vs DB level
« Reply #2 on: 27 Dec 2019, 01:19 pm »
Ah the mystery of watts (power) versus dB (what we hear)...

Amps and receivers produce and are sold based on power (typically at 8 ohms or maybe 4 ohms).  Speaker efficiency is based on XX dB/w/m, which means so loud at 1 watt of input 1 meter away.  So put together what does this mean?  First you should find a sound pressure meter (spl, check your smart phone for an app) to learn what different spl's sound like.  If like most you'l find you comfortably listen to around 80 dB.  But music is made up of peaks, so the dynamic range can vary by 10 dB for rock, 20 dB for jazz, and 30 dB for classical.


Add in two confusion factors:

1.)  How many speakers will you be listening to?  How big of room will you be listening in (and how far away from the speakers will you be).  Doubling the number of speakers adds 3 dB but moving twice as far away cost 6 dB for most speaker designs.

2.)  The relationship between power and sound is logarithmic, meaning it takes ten times the power to sound twice as loud (an increase of 10 dB).  So while most speakers are rated at roughly 85 dB/w/m and in-room you might use 1 watt/channel to reach 82 dB in-room, those peaks can take up to 500 times the watts to reach live concert levels.  So speaker efficiency can be more important than wattage.  Also note that pushing the amp beyond it's rated power (called clipping because on a scope the waveform flattens out at the top and bottom).  This clipping is extremely hard on speakers and can cause damage quicker than applying too much clean (unclipped) power.  This issue is somewhat overstated as live music peaks (105-110 dB) are quite loud and few routinely listen that loud, but accidents do happen.  OTOH note that for best sound the amp should have a "commanding grip" on the speaker so all around it's best to oversize the amp for the given speaker/room application.


Getting back around to how wattage levels are displayed, professionals use dB's (like an old fashioned VU meter) to display how close to clipping they are.  In this case it appears that the manufacturer is equating 0 dB of gain to 1 watt (the rated speaker efficiency).  So +18 dB is about 65 watts per channel.  IMO the best system (not yet invented) would be to dial the amp to the speaker/room combination so it displays an approximation of the actual dB you're listening to.  Different manufacturers calibrate their displays to different arbitrary settings. 


And since we're in the HT circle I'll point out that nearly all multi-channel receivers do not put out the rated wattage simultaneously into all channels due to the fact that they share one power supply.  OTOH rear/ATMOS channels don't need the power of left, right, and center channels. 

Elizabeth

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Re: Volume vs DB level
« Reply #3 on: 27 Dec 2019, 02:19 pm »
One useful thing is getting a free dB level app on your smartphone.
It is true it may not be perfect, and it may not be exactly correct (to stop the naysayers before they get started) but it CAn show relative loudness from one venuse to another. So when you are in a restaurant and can note the ambient dB is 85dB.... Ir in a car wit hthe stereo blaring you can note the sound level is 97dB..... continuous.....
So pretty useful.
When I go audition stuff I always bring the dB metr along.. and set the sound level to 70dB average.. The dealer guys usually are listening, and set the spl to around 90dB+ every time.. I just turn it down to listen.

Phil A

Re: Volume vs DB level
« Reply #4 on: 27 Dec 2019, 03:42 pm »
Besides an app for the smart phone, one can get a calibrated mic for a smart phone and/or tablet at Parts Express - e.g. https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-imm-6-calibrated-measurement-microphone-for-tablets-iphone-ipad-and-android--390-810

I use the Audiotools app from Studio Six Digital for the tablets and my phone.  Very convenient and more stuff than I'll ever need - https://studiosixdigital.com/audiotools-modules-2/the-audiotools-platform/

mix4fix

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Re: Volume vs DB level
« Reply #5 on: 2 Jan 2020, 07:40 am »
I was testing it out with a MP3 player on a line cable. It wasn't as loud as I should be. Since it is an old receiver, I though the amplification section was going bad.

Once I hooked it up to a DVD player via digital (MP3's via USB drive and CDs), the volume was normal.