Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!

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Early B.

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #40 on: 28 Dec 2019, 11:40 am »
Uhhhh don't you think it might be better until after the upgrades are finished before asking that question?

No. The question was more about his motivation. As Tyson indicated, killing time during Christmas to hang out with Danny is a sufficient reason, IMO.   
 

Tyson

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #41 on: 28 Dec 2019, 04:27 pm »
Maty and fullrangeman, we are definitely not changing drivers, because then it wouldn't be a Klipsch speaker anymore.  Please remove your posts on other drivers, they are distracting - thanks!

Beatlebum

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #42 on: 28 Dec 2019, 04:38 pm »
Following and reading with great interest. I have both Forte III's as well as 1990 Chorus II's with updated Crites crossovers and titanium diaphragms in both the tweeters and midrange horns. By far the Chorus II's are my favorite speakers owned to date.


Mr Rick

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Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #43 on: 28 Dec 2019, 04:45 pm »
Here’s the thing - even with all these issues, the stock speakers sound pretty good.  Look, I rarely like how a speaker sounds.  And even less often do I like it enough to consider buying it.  The basic Forte III is really good from a sound quality standpoint.  If I weren’t recently divorced and trying to kill time on my first Christmas alone, I probably would not have made the trip.  But I am and I did.  And I’m super glad I did, hanging with Danny has been a blast.

By coincidence, last evening I was reading a speaker review in a back issue of Stereophile. The speakers were made by a well known French company.

It was noted that though the speakers were floor standing, with four drivers, they only weighed 48 pounds each. This was found to be ' by design' as the speakers had little damping, and no bracing, as these things effect sensitivity.

In the review the sound was described as spectacularly dynamic, with outstanding resolution. It was mentioned that the speakers could reproduce the smallest of details, and that the speed was breathtaking. In fact, it was said that the speakers had the speed and dynamics of a good horn speaker.

As others, I'll be following this upgrade closely. In the final analysis, only your ears will tell you if the upgrade makes the speakers ' better ', or merely different. I hope you don't lose any of those elements that make a Klipsch a Klipsch.

nickd

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #44 on: 28 Dec 2019, 05:48 pm »
I’m neutral on cabinet bracing on high sensitivity horns like the Klipsch and Altec’s. I’m not going to try and build a pair DYI. I think it takes a bit of real engineering to make it work properly. I don’t think it’s a cost saving shortcut. They do it on purpose. It can make killer bass with the right drivers and crossover.

That said, I’m very curious about how these come out with Danny’s magic in the crossover. It really is the heart of a speaker. As good as the Klipsch team is, there is always room for improvement. Danny has some really good instincts on filters and great parts are an easy improvement from the cheap stuff big factory’s use.

I have been lusting after a pair of Volti Rivals for some time. I’m thinking these will compete once the upgrades are complete.  :popcorn:

charmerci

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #45 on: 28 Dec 2019, 06:07 pm »
Having dampened a couple of cheaper speakers, I can confidently say that - at higher volumes - cabinet vibrations definitely do muddy up the sound. (It's just basic physics.) An inert cabinet is an expensive thing to make and is often not done for the expense because it would move the speaker up to a much higher price point. Plus, it generally adds much weight (shipping expense) to the speaker.


I'm an avid fan of speaker dampening - and wish others were too.

Tyson

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #46 on: 28 Dec 2019, 06:13 pm »
Cutting the braces.  We did it differently than I thought we would.  My idea was just to get some oak dowels and glue them lenghthwise and crosswise, flat against each interior panel.  But Danny explained that while it would make the cabinet stiffer, it would also eat up airspace.  A better way for our purposes is to cut small diagonal braces and make triangle braces at key locations.  I also would have put the braces closer to the middle but Danny showed me that putting them at the 1/3rd point instead of the 1/2 point actually does a better job reducing resonance and increasing cabinet stiffness. 

Cutting the braces:




Started adding the braces:




Braces are all in and Norez installed too:



Mr Rick

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Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #47 on: 28 Dec 2019, 06:21 pm »
Having dampened a couple of cheaper speakers, I can confidently say that - at higher volumes - cabinet vibrations definitely do muddy up the sound. (It's just basic physics.) An inert cabinet is an expensive thing to make and is often not done for the expense because it would move the speaker up to a much higher price point. Plus, it generally adds much weight (shipping expense) to the speaker.


I'm an avid fan of speaker dampening - and wish others were too.
Quote

But there are speakers specifically designed to have a lively cabinet and are renowned for their sound. Harbeth comes to mind. It is said such speakers were designed as instruments with the sound of the cabinet playing an integral part in the sound.

Tyson

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #48 on: 28 Dec 2019, 06:23 pm »
Re: cabinet bracing's effect on the sound - no need to speculate as we'll find out from listening, soon enough.

maxima95

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Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #49 on: 28 Dec 2019, 06:56 pm »
Absolutely; the proof is in the listening.

While a lot of speakers could use some bracing (and damping), I always wonder about how the added bracing may alter (reduce) the internal volume. 

In the picture with the table saw, I can't tell the size of the braces (the lens appears to make them look bigger than they are.) It looks like the pile adds up to, at least, approx. 1 foot of cubic volume.

That aside, following with interest on how they will sound.


charmerci

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #50 on: 28 Dec 2019, 07:26 pm »

But there are speakers specifically designed to have a lively cabinet and are renowned for their sound. Harbeth comes to mind. It is said such speakers were designed as instruments with the sound of the cabinet playing an integral part in the sound.


Hmmm, how does the cabinet know how to resonant to the sound of a trumpet or an upright bass?

Mr Rick

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Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #51 on: 28 Dec 2019, 07:35 pm »

Hmmm, how does the cabinet know how to resonant to the sound of a trumpet or an upright bass?

Ha, therein lies the magic of speaker design.

witchdoctor

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #52 on: 28 Dec 2019, 07:53 pm »
Thanks for posting the pics, it looks like a LOT of fun. In the future I am sure it will be just as fun  recounting your modding efforts when guests come over for a listen.

Tyson

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #53 on: 28 Dec 2019, 08:04 pm »
Absolutely; the proof is in the listening.

While a lot of speakers could use some bracing (and damping), I always wonder about how the added bracing may alter (reduce) the internal volume. 

In the picture with the table saw, I can't tell the size of the braces (the lens appears to make them look bigger than they are.) It looks like the pile adds up to, at least, approx. 1 foot of cubic volume.

That aside, following with interest on how they will sound.



That pile was for both speakers, and they were all angle cut.  The pics definitely make them look a lot bigger than they are in life. 

Crossover is still being worked out, but I'll say this - the cabinets are a lot more inert now than they were before we started.  I have a suspicion that it will help with one of the issues we noted yesterday:  When pushed, they get a bit muddy with the stock cabinet. 

Now, you might say "I have them and they don't sound muddy to me!".  Which is valid.  But we're also comparing them to cost no object open baffle designs that have zero bloat or muddiness.  So the standards are rather high.   

rollo

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Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #54 on: 28 Dec 2019, 08:51 pm »
  Looks like a fun project to me. Thanks for photos. Is it possible to listen with original crossover and wiring first to find out results of enclosure treatment ? We could learn how important each improvement gives. The bracing and No-Rez end result is interesting in itself. Would not after measurements of such in determining the crossover mod ?


charles

Early B.

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #55 on: 28 Dec 2019, 08:56 pm »
I'm gonna take a wild guess -- when it's done, Tyson is gonna report that these speakers sound far superior to stock, but they won't sound quite like Klipsch anymore. The magic will be gone, but a new appreciation will emerge. And then, because he learned so much from his experience with Danny, he's gonna seek to build the ultimate DIY speaker in 2020 that will supersede his Super 7's. Hint: it will have a helluva horn tweeter with repurposed Neo10's and 8" mid-bass drivers with copper nipples crossed over at 50Hz to triple OB servo subs up front and duals in the rear.

   

Early B.

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #56 on: 28 Dec 2019, 08:58 pm »
The bracing and No-Rez end result is interesting in itself. Would not after measurements of such in determining the crossover mod ?

Good point. That's probably why they haven't worked out the new crossover yet.

Mr Rick

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Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #57 on: 28 Dec 2019, 09:02 pm »
Something like the horn system on Steve Guttenberg's channel?

charmerci

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #58 on: 28 Dec 2019, 09:03 pm »
Hmmm.... There seems to be quite a bit of magic being used in speaker design. How much is the magic fairy dust and where can I get some? lol

WGH

Re: Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!
« Reply #59 on: 28 Dec 2019, 10:03 pm »
In 1991, I bought a new pair of Klipsch Quartet speakers for $844.50 each and put them in my woodshop. The Quartet's were driven to outrageous levels with an Adcom GTP400 and GFA 535 combo, my neighbor said he really liked my music.

Whenever I upgraded my home electronics the old stuff went into the woodshop, which was when I noticed the Klipsch magic disappearing even though the 'new' electronics was more precise with more power. The new electronics were revealing the flaws in the Klipsch crossover hidden by the sweet sounding Adcom GFA 535.

I solved the problem by moving my JBL L100's into the shop, they rocked even harder than the Klipsch's.