Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?

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birkbott

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Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« on: 16 Dec 2019, 06:38 pm »
I'm currently building X-LS Encores and considering putting dual subs under them. Due to my lack of space I'm thinking sealed (the servo sub kit 2) with the amp mounted externally and forward facing so I can adjust the settings easily.

Has anyone ever tried a setup like this and if so how was it?

Would look something like this with the sub amps on the bottom, using the built in 80hz crossover to split the duty between the subs and the X-LSs.




Early B.

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #1 on: 16 Dec 2019, 06:55 pm »
Build open baffle servo subs, even though you may not have the space. Why? because it will still sound much better than dual box subs. Besides, it will be less expensive to build.

A forward facing amp????  Naw, dude. That's wrong on so many levels. 

mlundy57

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #2 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:03 pm »
I'm currently building X-LS Encores and considering putting dual subs under them. Due to my lack of space I'm thinking sealed (the servo sub kit 2) with the amp mounted externally and forward facing so I can adjust the settings easily.

Has anyone ever tried a setup like this and if so how was it?

Would look something like this with the sub amps on the bottom, using the built in 80hz crossover to split the duty between the subs and the X-LSs.



Personally I'd put the Encores on speaker stands.

You can build the subs with the amps in the same cabinet as the driver and just turn them around so the amps face out. With subwoofers, it doesn't really matter which way the drivers face. I used to have Danny's N1X bookshelves on stands with a sealed sub behind the stand. When I built the N3 towers I had to move the sub. I ended up moving it to the back of the room behind the couch with the driver facing sideways. It sounds much better in this location then on the front wall. It also sounds like the bass is coming from the main speakers. You don't realize the sub is actually behind you.

birkbott

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Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #3 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:07 pm »
Build open baffle servo subs, even though you may not have the space. Why? because it will still sound much better than dual box subs. Besides, it will be less expensive to build.

A forward facing amp????  Naw, dude. That's wrong on so many levels.

You're saying to build one OB sub instead of dual sealed subs, correct? And even if it's up against a wall it will sound better than the dual sealed?

RE: the forward facing amp, what's wrong about it? It would be recessed into that enclosure with grill cloth covering it most of the time so you wouldn't see it.

birkbott

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Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #4 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:07 pm »
Personally I'd put the Encores on speaker stands.

You can build the subs with the amps in the same cabinet as the driver and just turn them around so the amps face out. With subwoofers, it doesn't really matter which way the drivers face. I used to have Danny's N1X bookshelves on stands with a sealed sub behind the stand. When I built the N3 towers I had to move the sub. I ended up moving it to the back of the room behind the couch with the driver facing sideways. It sounds much better in this location then on the front wall. It also sounds like the bass is coming from the main speakers. You don't realize the sub is actually behind you.

That's interesting, what do you have the crossover set to?

mlundy57

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #5 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:08 pm »
Build open baffle servo subs, even though you may not have the space. Why? because it will still sound much better than dual box subs. Besides, it will be less expensive to build.

A forward facing amp????  Naw, dude. That's wrong on so many levels.

I'm the oddball that prefers like with like. By that I mean I prefer the overall sound of the sealed servo sub with the N3 towers and open baffle subs with open baffle speakers.

birkbott

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Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #6 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:11 pm »
RE: external servo sub amps in general, 4 pin SpeakON connectors would work to connect the amp enclosure to the speaker enclosure, right?

mlundy57

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #7 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:12 pm »
That's interesting, what do you have the crossover set to?

With the N3s 40Hz. With the encores it would be somewhere around 50-60Hz

mlundy57

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #8 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:13 pm »
RE: external servo sub amps in general, 4 pin SpeakON connectors would work to connect the amp enclosure to the speaker enclosure, right?

Yes

Early B.

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #9 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:14 pm »
You're saying to build one OB sub instead of dual sealed subs, correct? And even if it's up against a wall it will sound better than the dual sealed?

RE: the forward facing amp, what's wrong about it? It would be recessed into that enclosure with grill cloth covering it most of the time so you wouldn't see it.

I'm saying build TWO OB servo subs.

Remember, you're gonna have cables attached to the amp. Do you want cables running in front of your speakers. Besides, an amp facing forward is gonna look ridiculous.   

birkbott

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Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #10 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:18 pm »
I'm saying build TWO OB servo subs.

Remember, you're gonna have cables attached to the amp. Do you want cables running in front of your speakers. Besides, an amp facing forward is gonna look ridiculous.

I'm not really sure I follow this logic as the OB sub kits are more expensive than the sealed kits.

Yes I'm aware of cables, etc. There will be an exit in the back of the amp enclosure for them and it will be concealed behind grill cloth 99% of the time.

Early B.

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #11 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:19 pm »
I'm the oddball that prefers like with like. By that I mean I prefer the overall sound of the sealed servo sub with the N3 towers and open baffle subs with open baffle speakers.

My position is to always go with what sounds better. 
 

birkbott

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Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #12 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:19 pm »
With the N3s 40Hz. With the encores it would be somewhere around 50-60Hz

Do you always prefer to run your mains full range and integrate the sub at the natural roll off? I was thinking I would use the 80hz crossover on the sub amp to better integrate and reduce the load of the mains. The directionality of the higher crossover is why I was also thinking they should be forward facing and directly under each main speaker.

Early B.

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #13 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:24 pm »
I'm not really sure I follow this logic as the OB sub kits are more expensive than the sealed kits.

Yes I'm aware of cables, etc. There will be an exit in the back of the amp enclosure for them and it will be concealed behind grill cloth 99% of the time.

I started with a single OB sub, then eventually two, now I have three. I don't know your budget, so I recommended two.


mlundy57

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #14 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:49 pm »
Do you always prefer to run your mains full range and integrate the sub at the natural roll off? I was thinking I would use the 80hz crossover on the sub amp to better integrate and reduce the load of the mains. The directionality of the higher crossover is why I was also thinking they should be forward facing and directly under each main speaker.

Even at 80Hz the signal is still omnidirectional so driver direction doesn't matter. As an aside, 80Hz is the THX standard crossover point.

The numbers on the crossover dial of the sub amp don't actually correlate to a specific frequency so you can't just set the dial to 80Hz and actually have an 80Hz crossover point to subs. Having some way of measuring the signal is a lot easier than doing it by ear. I use REW.

If you are going to let your speakers roll off naturally, you want to crossover where the speakers are -6dB. With the X-LS Encores that's around 51Hz but could differ due to room gain. If you want to roll them off higher and you have a separate preamp and power amp, you can use an inline filter between the pre and power amp to change the rolloff and thereby the -6 point. If you are using a receiver with bass management, like an AVR, you can use it's bass management to set the crossover point. In this case you would connect to the LFE input on the sub amp. This by-passes the sub's crossover controls.

Tyson

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #15 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:53 pm »
Go with dual OB subs, you will be very happy you did.  IMO true stereo bass that integrates perfectly at the speaker position is one of the main reasons for going with an OB speaker in the first place. 

birkbott

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Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #16 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:56 pm »
Even at 80Hz the signal is still omnidirectional so driver direction doesn't matter. As an aside, 80Hz is the THX standard crossover point.

The numbers on the crossover dial of the sub amp don't actually correlate to a specific frequency so you can't just set the dial to 80Hz and actually have an 80Hz crossover point to subs. Having some way of measuring the signal is a lot easier than doing it by ear. I use REW.

If you are going to let your speakers roll off naturally, you want to crossover where the speakers are -6dB. With the X-LS Encores that's around 51Hz but could differ due to room gain. If you want to roll them off higher and you have a separate preamp and power amp, you can use an inline filter between the pre and power amp to change the rolloff and thereby the -6 point. If you are using a receiver with bass management, like an AVR, you can use it's bass management to set the crossover point. In this case you would connect to the LFE input on the sub amp. This by-passes the sub's crossover controls.

As I understand it the A370PEQ amp that comes with the Servo Sub Kit 2 has a built in fixed 80hz crossover if you're using the low level inputs between your pre and power amps.

The only thing I dislike about this setup is that you have to run interconnects from the preamp to the sub amp and then back to the power amp and then speaker wire back to the speakers so it's a lot of back and forth.

I'm considering building some Hypex NC400 monoblocks that can easily fit in the sub amp enclosures or on top of the Encores to get everything closer together. I love the sound of my Schiit Aegir but I'm afraid it will be underpowered for the Encores and I don't think I have room for 2 of them.

birkbott

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Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #17 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:58 pm »
Go with dual OB subs, you will be very happy you did.  IMO true stereo bass that integrates perfectly at the speaker position is one of the main reasons for going with an OB speaker in the first place.

What do most people do with the amps on those OB designs?

Early B.

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #18 on: 16 Dec 2019, 08:13 pm »
What do most people do with the amps on those OB designs?

Set them on the floor a few inches behind the subs. They're not visible from the front of the room.

WC

Re: Another X-LS Encore question - Dual subs?
« Reply #19 on: 16 Dec 2019, 08:48 pm »
Birkbott,

You mentioned space concerns. In which way?

OB subs require the ability to pull your main speakers out at least 3' from the wall. Is that possible in your case?

If not, the sealed servos would be the way to go. You can use them as speaker stands, but most likely your speakers and room will sound better if the subs are located elsewhere in the room.