Vibration control?

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jawks

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Vibration control?
« on: 16 Dec 2019, 03:11 pm »
Hi everyone!

I am relatively new to this circle but look forward to participating in some of the discussions moving forward!  I just picked up a used but in great condition Well Tempered Amadeus mk2 this past weekend -- my first WT table -- and after a little bit of effort setting it up, I finally got a chance to start some listening.  So far, my impressions have been very positive, coming most recently from a Thorens TD160 and, before that, a VPI Aries.  I've started pulling out my favorite records again to see how they sound on the new table, which has been a lot of fun.  One thing I have noticed is that the table is very sensitive to floor vibrations.  Even if I start walking towards the turntable, the closer I get, I start to hear some wobble to the sound, and firmer footing occasionally causes a skip.  Have any of you also experienced this issue and, if so, would you please share how you have dealt with it?  My Amadeus is currently sitting atop a Salamander rack.

Many thanks!

mick wolfe

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #1 on: 16 Dec 2019, 03:30 pm »
You might look into a wall mount shelf or even consider a DIY wall mount design.

jawks

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #2 on: 16 Dec 2019, 03:36 pm »
You might look into a wall mount shelf or even consider a DIY wall mount design.

Thanks for the quick reply!  A wall mount shelf would be great but is unfortunately not feasible with our current living room setup.  Would a vibration platform under the table offer any benefit?

rollo

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #3 on: 16 Dec 2019, 04:00 pm »
  Hi. You might try to decouple the TT from the surface below. Or decouple the rack, shelf or whatever TT sits on from floor. We use a sandbox that has a wood plinth which TT sits upon. That box is decoulped from the stand below it. The stand as well.
 Do you have suspended wood floors ?


charles

jawks

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #4 on: 16 Dec 2019, 04:14 pm »
  Hi. You might try to decouple the TT from the surface below. Or decouple the rack, shelf or whatever TT sits on from floor. We use a sandbox that has a wood plinth which TT sits upon. That box is decoulped from the stand below it. The stand as well.
 Do you have suspended wood floors ?


charles

That's an interesting strategy.

I actually don't know if we have suspended wood floors.  Why do you ask?

Elizabeth

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #5 on: 16 Dec 2019, 05:00 pm »
If your walking across the floor can jiggle the table. you DO HAVE suspended wood underframe floors. There is no other (likely) possibility.
One way (if you own the house) is to place a jack directly under the area the TT stand in in. If the house has no basement, this would be from the ground to the underfloor beams..  (Even if you do not own the house, adding such a jack would usually not put an owner's mind out of wack. Since it is external, and can be removed instantly no harm done. 
Probably best a patio slab concrete, then a jack. or two under there. on hte cheap, under a house with no basement you can actually get under the crawlspace.. a few concrete blocks, some scrap wood wedged in... done.
 If you have a basement.. What is under there??? matters. Same thing a jack could be placed, as long as it was not permanent if you do not own the house... (They make screw poles to brace under the floor and can be found at any builder supply.. Menards etc.) If you DO own the house...Additional bracing could also be done to the underfloor. from below if he area has to be open space (no jack in the way_
One frowned upon solution is a lot of mass around under the stand/around the stand. cocrete blocks patio blocks. Making the floor tensed enough it is not gonna bounce. Some folks think this is some sort of cop-out. (so is using a sandbox... just sayin')

ricmon

Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #6 on: 16 Dec 2019, 06:01 pm »
You may want to recheck tracking force (weight).  If to light it can be overly sensitive.  I replaced the pucks supplied wit the footers on my VPI Prime with these.

https://www.svsound.com/products/soundpath-subwoofer-isolation-system

Ric

mick wolfe

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #7 on: 16 Dec 2019, 07:32 pm »
Thanks for the quick reply!  A wall mount shelf would be great but is unfortunately not feasible with our current living room setup.  Would a vibration platform under the table offer any benefit?

I would not buy a platform of any sort without a return option. You can try one or two if you like, but I think the best solution has already been offered by Elizabeth. If there's a basement or crawl space below the area your system is located, a floor jack or 2 strategically placed under the floor joists is probably the better solution.

rollo

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #8 on: 16 Dec 2019, 08:13 pm »
  Using a sandbox according to Harry Pearson and Scott Markwell formerly of the Absolute Sound is a valid solution for isolation.  Scott still uses one and Harry RIP. Scott of Elite Distribution recommends to his Kuzma clients exactly that.  Remember sandbox must be decoulped as well from surface below. None available commercially though. So if ya can firm up that suspended floor first.
  As stated firming up the suspended floor if accessible from below will help as well. Bouncy floor bouncy TT arm. As suggested double check tracking force as well. Everything matters. Have fun.

charles

jawks

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #9 on: 16 Dec 2019, 08:17 pm »
  Using a sandbox according to Harry Pearson and Scott Markwell formerly of the Absolute Sound is a valid solution for isolation.  Scott still uses one and Harry RIP. Scott of Elite Distribution recommends to his Kuzma clients exactly that.  Remember sandbox must be decoulped as well from surface below. None available commercially though. So if ya can firm up that suspended floor first.
  As stated firming up the suspended floor if accessible from below will help as well. Bouncy floor bouncy TT arm. As suggested double check tracking force as well. Everything matters. Have fun.

charles

Thank you all for your input!  Unfortunately, we live on the second floor of a condo building with neighbors beneath us, so I don't think that doing anything to the floor is a possibility for us.  Also, I'm pretty sure my wife would not approve of me tearing up the floor in that area of the living room for the purpose of reducing vibration in my turntable!   :icon_surprised:


RPM123

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #10 on: 16 Dec 2019, 09:21 pm »
I have the same issue as jawks, so I have to walk very carefully towards my Versalex to change record sides, lest the tonearm starts to jiggle. Funny thing though.. I used to have an Entreq grounding box that weighed close to 40 lbs, sitting on the bottom shelf of my equipment rack and during the time that I had it, my TT was far less prone to footfalls. Maas loading  apparently did the trick. You may want to research suspension platforms or make one of your own using plywood and footers.

http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation-platform/

gagamut

Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #11 on: 17 Dec 2019, 02:49 am »
Thank you all for your input!  Unfortunately, we live on the second floor of a condo building with neighbors beneath us, so I don't think that doing anything to the floor is a possibility for us.  Also, I'm pretty sure my wife would not approve of me tearing up the floor in that area of the living room for the purpose of reducing vibration in my turntable!   :icon_surprised:

i think you can replace your spikes of rack,use like B-fly..... foot can isolation the vibration from the floor.
and you can add one more thick plywood(place the Taica sn sheet or alpha gel chips under the plywood) under your turntable.(i have use too)
Taica is very good for vibration damping

JLM

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #12 on: 17 Dec 2019, 11:57 am »
Seems like you have a low mass turntable/rack and soft floors, a bad combination.  It amazes me after a 100+ years how poorly the suspensions of quality turntables are designed.  Footers must be carefully selected to be effective, look for very soft support.  You might consider a softly inflated air bladder.

Elizabeth is on another good track, but not for your situation.   

Why can't you hang off the hopefully stiff wall that doesn't adjoin a gym (just a few small holes needed).  Another option is to suspend from the ceiling (if the space above is unoccupied) with thin wires and toggle bolts. 

jawks

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #13 on: 17 Dec 2019, 01:44 pm »
Seems like you have a low mass turntable/rack and soft floors, a bad combination.  It amazes me after a 100+ years how poorly the suspensions of quality turntables are designed.  Footers must be carefully selected to be effective, look for very soft support.  You might consider a softly inflated air bladder.

Elizabeth is on another good track, but not for your situation.   

Why can't you hang off the hopefully stiff wall that doesn't adjoin a gym (just a few small holes needed).  Another option is to suspend from the ceiling (if the space above is unoccupied) with thin wires and toggle bolts.

Thanks for your reply.  Unfortunately, anything that involves drilling or hanging anything off the wall or ceiling is off limits for me.  The feet of the turntable rest on what are basically squash or racquet balls. 

I had a similar issue with my previous Thorens TD160, but I think the suspension system of that turntable was helpful in isolating the table from some of the floor vibration.  The VPI Aries I had before that was a more massive turntable that seemed almost impervious to vibration.  So, I think you are right that the low mass table, combined with soft flooring, may play a role here.

It seems like there may not be a perfect solution for me, but maybe I can see if I can place something under the turntable to help.  Other than that, I'll just have to walk on eggshells around it!

rooze

Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #14 on: 17 Dec 2019, 01:54 pm »
“ You must walk the rice paper without leaving any marks. This will signify that you can walk without making any sounds.”

jawks

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #15 on: 17 Dec 2019, 01:55 pm »
“ You must walk the rice paper without leaving any marks. This will signify that you can walk without making any sounds.”

 :lol:

rollo

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #16 on: 17 Dec 2019, 04:01 pm »
  You also may consider a plinth below TT then decouple the plinth from surface below. Have fun trying.


charles

Photon46

Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #17 on: 18 Dec 2019, 12:04 am »
Here is a link to a good article about how to construct a sandbox. I recently built this system for my high mass Acoustic Signature Final Tool turntable and have been quite impressed at how much better this sounds than my previously used 4" thick maple plinth with BDR carbon fiber feet. FWIW, I used a 1" thick birch plywood top plate instead of the polycarbonate sheet in the spec sheet. I also used a mixture of fine particle inorganic bonsai "soil" mixed with sand instead of plain sand. (The theory behind that is that highly irregular particle boundaries and different densities of particles block vibration transmission better than using just sand with similar particle size and uniform density. The bonsai particles are a mixture of expanded shale, volcanic pumice, and lava rock.)

http://cognitivevent.com/sandbox.html

https://www.americanbonsai.com/American-Bonsai-Soil-s/1826.htm

/mp

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #18 on: 19 Dec 2019, 05:18 pm »
Electron microscope stand?
https://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/vibration/vibration.aspx

Triple MSRP for audiophile badge. ;)

Kimiimacman

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Re: Vibration control?
« Reply #19 on: 19 Dec 2019, 05:23 pm »
As an owner and reseller of WT decks I do understand your issue here. I have the same scenario at home but was 100% resolved with wall mounting though I understand this is not for you. Unfortunately these decks suffer more than many/most because of their ‘wobbly’ bearing design. Decks like Avid bounce at such a low frequency that makes them impervious to this and even sideways jolts. The only WT that worked reasonably well in this situation was the Royale 400 due  to its 50kg mass.

Edit: I did try a Townshend Seismic Sink (air bladder design) no longer in production and pumped to the minimum to achieve about a 4hz helped a lot. His designs have changed somewhat so try before you buy. Good luck.