Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade

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Danny Richie

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Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« on: 28 Nov 2019, 06:48 pm »
This is basically a follow up to the Tuesday Tech Talk that I just did on these. You can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arYwrAtcJZY&lc=z23rdb3bwszjjb1g104t1aokgkbbp5vt3wem3sbhfd5lbk0h00410.1574955117800485

They look nice, but what do we really find under the hood?



I'll start with all the factory measurements.

The on axis response shows some curves and a top end that is about a db hotter then the rest of the speaker.



And the bi-wiring on the back side make shooting individual responses pretty easy.



They aren't completely in phase at the crossover region on the tweeter axis (as this was taken), and there is a clear dipped area in the crossover region. Also each driver struggles to reach the other a little bit.

The woofers response was pretty rough. There was a huge spike at 6kHz showing a lot of ringing. This is typical of a lot of metal cone woofers.



So the stock crossover used an aggressive second order curve to get the peak out of it. Unfortunately it humped up the response in the 700 to 800Hz range.

The tweeters response looked pretty good. The gain down low is due to the wave guide (horn).



The vertical off axis shows the drivers getting a little further out of phase as the microphone moved up.



As the microphone moved down the drivers stayed in phase a little better over a pretty good range. So flipping the stock speakers over or tilting them back will help.



And the horizontal off axis looked great but was still a reflection of the bad on axis response.



The spectral decay looked pretty good.



The impedance was a bit of a mis-match. And there are a couple of cabinet resonances that are showing up in the impedance curve at 25Hz and 55Hz.



Okay, so what did I do to them? Well as we can see here, I smoothed out the on axis response.



Check out the new crossover curves.



I tried a number of different crossovers and orders to try to improve the phase relationship of the drivers. It is not so easy when the tweeter is already further back in time than the woofer. So I wound up using first order filters on them. That worked great except for the fact that the woofer needed a lot of help getting rid of the huge peak up top. So I designed a notch filter to knock that peak out. It was a pretty aggressive filter, but it worked great.

So in the end there were only three parts in the woofer circuit and only three parts in the tweeter circuit. That's only one more part than what was on the factory crossover.

The vertical off axis now looks pretty good. The response stays pretty flat until getting up really high. The green line is 12" up at 1 meter.



The new horizontal off axis looks great. This is a super smooth roll off in the off axis.



The spectral decay is still super clean, but balanced.



And the impedance is a little more balanced. I could go in and add an impedance trap to really flatten out the load, but I am trying to keep this a budget level upgrade.

So that's the measured data.

I am going to offer this as a complete upgrade that address other issues as well. The upgrade will include MUCH higher quality parts than what was used in them originally. I will include high quality internal wire that is four 9's pure solid core Copper with polyethylene coating. The upgrade will include a set of tube connectors, and a sheet of No Rez. The total for everything is $209 plus shipping.


maty

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #2 on: 28 Nov 2019, 07:10 pm »
Tuesday I linked your last video, adding three screenshots that I made. In the open Internet:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/video-speaker-measurements-by-danny-richie.8840/post-274765



Question: Is the new CSD with or without No Rez?

http://gr-research.com/norez24x27sheet.aspx

Danny Richie

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #3 on: 28 Nov 2019, 07:21 pm »
Question: Is the new CSD with or without No Rez?

http://gr-research.com/norez24x27sheet.aspx

It is without, but the No Rez doesn't change the spectral decay.

maty

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #4 on: 28 Nov 2019, 07:23 pm »
So how is its effect measured? Only with an oscilloscope I think.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/345074-mdf-plywood-speaker-cabinets-post5975306.html


Danny Richie

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #5 on: 28 Nov 2019, 07:54 pm »
So how is its effect measured? Only with an oscilloscope I think.

You're thinking of an accelerometer measurement taken on a side panel of the cabinet. That is a very different measurement but also shown as a spectral decay.

Wind Chaser

Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #6 on: 28 Nov 2019, 08:02 pm »
As per usual, I'm impressed. So what are your impressions - before and after - with the mods in place?

Are these speakers worth the money or is there something else similarly priced including mods that one might be better off with?  :D

TIA

Jon L

Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #7 on: 29 Nov 2019, 12:27 am »

PS -  Herb likes them  :thumb:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-reference-premiere-rp-600m-loudspeaker

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-27-elekit-tu-8600r-amplifier-kit

Herb Reichert also wrote:

"The TU-8600R powering the RP-600Ms, sourced by the Chord Qutest DAC ($1895), created a complete under-$6k system, including cables and stands, that I'd be hard-pressed to improve on."

It so happens I already own a Chord Qutest DAC and Elekit TU-8600R 300B SET, so naturally, I ordered a set of Klipsch RP-600M   :thumb:
 

maty

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #8 on: 29 Nov 2019, 08:34 am »
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/kits/elekit-audio-kits-tu-8600r.html
Quote
SPECIFICATIONS

    CIRCUIT CONFIGURATION: Single-ended tube amplifier
    VALVE SET:  300B x 2, ECC83 x 1, ECC82 x 1
    POWER OUTPUT: 9.2 W + 9.2 W (THD 10%)
    MAXIMUM INPUT VOLTAGE: 320 mV
    RESIDUAL NOISE: 36 µV (IHF-A)
    FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 7 Hz - 40 kHz (-3 dB)
    INPUT IMPEDANCE: 50 kΩ
    OUTPUT IMPEDANCE: 4 Ω - 6,3 Ω / 8 Ω - 16 Ω Selectable by the rear switch
    INPUT TERMINAL: RCA LINE INPUT x 1
    OUTPUT TERMINAL: Speaker terminal gold-plated screw (banana plug usable)
    POWER VOLTAGE AC: 100/110-120/200/220-240 V 50/60 Hz (IEC inlet)
    POWER CONSUMPTION: 90 W
    DIMENSIONS:  W 385 x H 217 x D 325 mm
    WEIGHT Approx. 13 kg TU-8600R, 15kg TU-8600RVK

Price (1 off, excluding VAT & P&P) not supplied with valves or IEC lead

TU-8600R - £965.00

TU-8600RVK (with Lundahl OPTs) - £1375.00

To listen to very good recordings with high DR (dynamic range) you need speakers with higher sensitivity than these in far field.

https://www.doctorproaudio.com/content.php?2273-calculators-proaudio-sound-dmx&langid=1#calc_spl

Tube amps -> max power at THD 1% is more realistic.

80 dBSPL continuous + DR 15 = 95 dBSPL, 95 dB (sensitivity), 5 watts, 3 m, random phase -> 95.5 dBSPL

With modern commercial music, so badly recorded, with DR < or << 10 you need less watts!


***** *****

Two days ago, I listen to a 24/192 vinyl rip with DR17. One track with DR20.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5990058.html

Tracks with DR12-DR15 are more usual, like yesterday.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5991002.html

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5991079.html

slefley

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #9 on: 29 Nov 2019, 04:25 pm »
This looks promising.  Are there any comments on the difference in sound quality between the stock and modified speakers?  In my (limited) experience, better measurements don't always translate into better musical enjoyment, especially with speakers.

Danny Richie

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #10 on: 29 Nov 2019, 05:25 pm »
This looks promising.  Are there any comments on the difference in sound quality between the stock and modified speakers?  In my (limited) experience, better measurements don't always translate into better musical enjoyment, especially with speakers.

The things about this upgrade that really make them sound better have little to do with the measurements.

The measurements only show that they are smoother, more balanced, and have better phase relationship.

I address this in the next video.

Folsom

Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #11 on: 29 Nov 2019, 06:31 pm »
Half of audiophiles only believe in first order crossovers. And this actually does it without sucking!! That's pretty interesting. But really the crossover region looks meh to start with, and Danny made it great with the most simple crossover... If they don't sound better I'd be shocked.

I would remove that middle brace I think it has in the speaker? And then I'd add corner bracing if it doesn't have it (wedge that connects panels). From there line it with no-rez. If possible for your use then put in tube connectors. I would untwist wires for tweeter, twist wires for woofer. And put either no-rez or dynamat on the waveguide for sure.


revg1952

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #13 on: 29 Nov 2019, 09:40 pm »
Danny
another incredible episode. But the reason I am commenting is my awakening to the ads, that they help people such as RON from NRD. I am a new believer in watching the ads, supporting all of those involved across the board. I wasn't sure if I should be posting this here or wherever! I an glad you brought it up at the beginning of the Nov 26, 2019 video.
 Danny Thomas started his support of St. Judes many years ago, as a promise to something that happened to him. So my eyes have been opened in my support of Ron, You, and the sponsors. I hope this open peoples eyes and Hearts.
RevG

ErShield89

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #14 on: 4 Dec 2019, 09:05 am »
I am interested in this upgrade for my speakers, Danny, but I have a pair of the previous version, the rp-160m.

I'm wondering if you have any insight into weather or not this upgrade, with its components for the crossover, would be a good fit or work appropriately for the drivers in the rp-160m? To my knowledge the only differences between the two are that the newer 600m has a vented tweeter and it uses a different material on the tweeter wave guide , silicone vs rubber.

Do you think the differences between these two speakers designs make the new upgraded crossover unsuitable, or maybe not ideal, for use in the 160m?

I am curious, and would love to hear your thoughts.

jmc207

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #15 on: 4 Dec 2019, 03:34 pm »
This thread on the Klipsch forum has a list of the components and a diagram for the RP-160M crossover. That should help see if there's any difference between it and the RP-600M.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/163667-how-to-make-the-rp-160m-come-alive/ 

Danny Richie

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #16 on: 4 Dec 2019, 04:12 pm »
I am interested in this upgrade for my speakers, Danny, but I have a pair of the previous version, the rp-160m.

I'm wondering if you have any insight into weather or not this upgrade, with its components for the crossover, would be a good fit or work appropriately for the drivers in the rp-160m? To my knowledge the only differences between the two are that the newer 600m has a vented tweeter and it uses a different material on the tweeter wave guide , silicone vs rubber.

Do you think the differences between these two speakers designs make the new upgraded crossover unsuitable, or maybe not ideal, for use in the 160m?

I am curious, and would love to hear your thoughts.

The differences in materials suggests to me a difference in the response. And the only way to answer that question is to look at the frequency response of each to see if they are the same. I have not done that.

maty

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #17 on: 4 Dec 2019, 05:04 pm »
Upgrade your Klipsch RP-600M! pt.1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ifiz6HrFd0




maty

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #18 on: 4 Dec 2019, 05:15 pm »
After to see the video I have tested with a magnet the KEF Q100 speaker connectors and as I supposed they are not made of steel. Brass with gold plate?

KEF Q300, the same that Q100 (from the net)



Danny, would it be worth changing a pair? After hallucinating with the tweeter condenser bypass I made this week, I TRUST in your experience and knowledge.

Danny Richie

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Re: Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
« Reply #19 on: 4 Dec 2019, 05:27 pm »
After to see the video I have tested with a magnet the KEF Q100 speaker connectors and as I supposed they are not made of steel. Brass with gold plate?

KEF Q300, the same that Q100 (from the net)

Danny, would it be worth changing a pair? After hallucinating with the tweeter condenser bypass I made this week, I TRUST in your experience and knowledge.

I bet you'll notice quite a difference swapping out a pair of those for some tube connectors.