Paralysis of analysis!

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Jmitchell3

Paralysis of analysis!
« on: 25 Nov 2019, 01:04 am »
Started considering the x-static’s, decided in my room I couldn’t really bring them out from the front wall enough to make them really sing.

Considered the xls encore and x-sls encores and finally discovered the x-cs and x-mtm encores which likely seem to be the best I could get without going x-static route or something bigger.

Then I started thinking maybe simply going sealed basic x-cs encore as mains AND center and adding dual rhythmic sealed 12” subs....not sure where those x-xs would be crossed, I’m assuming a standard 80-120hz range would work?

I presently have a single svs pb13-ultra doing double duty for music and HT. Would probably keep it and use it for mostly HT and treat the xcs mains and Rythmik subs as their own “unit” for 2 channel audio. Would there be any serious issues getting these to play nice together? (I have both a marantz sr-6012 and stand-alone dac - Schiit freya w newly acquired ncore monoblocks).

Anyone have any hair brained ideas that I may have not considered? :)

Tyson

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #1 on: 25 Nov 2019, 02:08 am »
If it was me I'd do the new studio monitor with the sealed midrange and open Neo10 tweeter, sit that on top of a sealed Rythmik sub so that your to mains are 'full range'. 

mresseguie

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Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #2 on: 25 Nov 2019, 02:26 am »
If it was me I'd do the new studio monitor with the sealed midrange and open Neo10 tweeter, sit that on top of a sealed Rythmik sub so that your to mains are 'full range'.

Neo3??  :green:


Tyson

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #3 on: 25 Nov 2019, 02:26 am »
Neo3??

Ooops, haha right.  Neo3.

mlundy57

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #4 on: 25 Nov 2019, 02:44 am »
I've built X-CS Encores as L&R mains for a stereo system and as LCR speakers for a music/home theater system. The X-CS Encore crosses to a sub around 50Hz. The X-MTM Encore crosses around 35Hz.

For the servo subs, go with the GR driver. If you order the sub kits from Danny, that's the driver you will receive. If you order finished subs from Rythmik, order the F12G. That's the one with the GR driver.

Neo3??  :green:

That's a good option. However, since the monitors cross to a sub around 70Hz, I'd put the monitors on speaker stands so they image the best and put the sealed subs where they work best in the room. A 70Hz crossover point, is low enough that the subs won't be localized.




Jmitchell3

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #5 on: 25 Nov 2019, 02:56 am »
I've built X-CS Encores as L&R mains for a stereo system and as LCR speakers for a music/home theater system. The X-CS Encore crosses to a sub around 50Hz. The X-MTM Encore crosses around 35Hz.

For the servo subs, go with the GR driver. If you order the sub kits from Danny, that's the driver you will receive. If you order finished subs from Rythmik, order the F12G. That's the one with the GR driver.

That's a good option. However, since the monitors cross to a sub around 70Hz, I'd put the monitors on speaker stands so they image the best and put the sealed subs where they work best in the room. A 70Hz crossover point, is low enough that the subs won't be localized.

All, thank you for the info.

I did consider the monitors, but not sure what i would do for center channel as space in the media cabinet is presently at a premium. I really like the concept tho.

So it sounds like the same sub positioning would be true for monitors, cs, and mtm units alike.

How do stands effect imaging? Is it just the lack of reflecting mass surrounding (edit: adjacent to) the speaker?

mlundy57

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #6 on: 25 Nov 2019, 03:22 am »
All, thank you for the info.

I did consider the monitors, but not sure what i would do for center channel as space in the media cabinet is presently at a premium. I really like the concept tho.

So it sounds like the same sub positioning would be true for monitors, cs, and mtm units alike.

How do stands effect imaging? Is it just the lack of reflecting mass surrounding (edit: adjacent to) the speaker?

That's what Danny said. I had been trying to come up with a lower section for the studio monitors looking at both the M165-16 and 8" servo sub drivers. No matter how I tried to lay it out, by the time I had a box with the proper amount of internal space for the respective drivers, the stand was either too deep to look right (more than twice as deep as the monitor), or too wide for the monitor to image properly. Danny said too much reflective surface below the monitor. Finally I asked about using a typical HT setup of monitors on stands and the sub where it worked best. He said that would work since there would be nothing below the monitor to impair imaging and the crossover point was low enough to not localize the sub.

Jmitchell3

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #7 on: 25 Nov 2019, 03:35 am »
That's what Danny said. I had been trying to come up with a lower section for the studio monitors looking at both the M165-16 and 8" servo sub drivers. No matter how I tried to lay it out, by the time I had a box with the proper amount of internal space for the respective drivers, the stand was either too deep to look right (more than twice as deep as the monitor), or too wide for the monitor to image properly. Danny said too much reflective surface below the monitor. Finally I asked about using a typical HT setup of monitors on stands and the sub where it worked best. He said that would work since there would be nothing below the monitor to impair imaging and the crossover point was low enough to not localize the sub.

Interesting. Bummer about the tower version of the monitors.

Well I saw these cheap little guys on amazon and got to thinking some similar shaping for the x-cs cabinet and some dark walnut veneer then placed vertically on some stands would potentially look mighty fine!  (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WK4KBZV/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_2P02DbJAFEEFM)

mlundy57

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #8 on: 25 Nov 2019, 04:59 am »
The problem with that design is that the Encores need to have at least the long edges (these would be the sides when standing up) rounded over. You can round over all the edges if you want, but at least the sides (top & bottom on the center channel) need to be rounded over.

Rounding all the edges poses a problem for veneering. You can't bend veneer over more than two planes. There are a few ways I know of to get around this. The one that has worked best for me isn't really veneering, the pieces are too thick. It would more accurately be called laminating hardwood to MDF. With this method, the hardwood (walnut in your case) needs to be thick enough so whatever size radius you are going to use doesn't cut through it. The hardwood is laminated to the outside of the cabinet. Be sure to take the thickness of the hardwood into account when building the box. Flush trim the pieces of hardwood to the cabinet as you go. Now you can roundover all the edges and the color and grain will flow and look right.

The problem with this method is getting the pieces of hardwood to the thickness(s) you need. If a person has the ability to joint, plane, resaw, and thickness sand they can make the hardwood pieces themselves. If not, there are usually places that will process the lumber for a fee.

Peter J (at least I think it's Peter's) has a method where he builds the MDF cabinet, then cuts out 3/8" x 3/8" pieces from all edges and inlays solid pieces of the same wood as the veneer. These pieces are flush trimmed then the veneer is applied to straight sides. Once the veneer has dried, the roundovers are applied utilizing climb cutting (and very light passes). This cuts through the veneer and the roundovers end up in the hardwood pieces that were inlaid. You can see a picture of an N3S done with this method here ( http://gr-research.com/n3-1.aspx ). Scroll down towards the bottom of the page.

corndog71

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Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #9 on: 25 Nov 2019, 04:34 pm »
I had a pair of X-CS Encore monitors with upgraded crossovers for a while.  Even without a sub they had impressive bass despite being sealed designs.  If I didn’t have X-Statiks I’d probably still be using them.  I sold them to a good friend who I think is still enjoying them.

Captainhemo

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #10 on: 25 Nov 2019, 05:32 pm »
A couple thing  to think about ...
Every time  we've  used  monitors on stands, they basically take up the same amount of real-estate in a room as a floor stander. 
An  N3TL's  cabinet is only 8" wide (.5" narrower than the  X series)  by 11" deep, IIRC it's about  41"  high plus whatever base  you  decide on.  Mike   has a pic in one of his threads with a pair  of X MTM flloor standers  beside his N3TL's and there is quite a difference beetween them....
I'm  not saying to  use a floor stander, I'm  just pointing out that  monitors on stands will have  the same footprint so don't  overlook   the floor standers.

With regards to the roundovers on the vertical edges of the  speakers,  they   really should be at least .5"  or larger to  actually help reduce defraction so keep that in mind if you   going to do one of the above methods  for veneer / hardwood.   If you  are  adding the rouindovers  strictly for cosmetic purposes,  you  can  do whatever  size  you   desire so

jay

mlundy57

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #11 on: 25 Nov 2019, 06:53 pm »
A couple thing  to think about ...
Every time  we've  used  monitors on stands, they basically take up the same amount of real-estate in a room as a floor stander. 
An  N3TL's  cabinet is only 8" wide (.5" narrower than the  X series)  by 11" deep, IIRC it's about  41"  high plus whatever base  you  decide on.  Mike   has a pic in one of his threads with a pair  of X MTM flloor standers  beside his N3TL's and there is quite a difference beetween them....
I'm  not saying to  use a floor stander, I'm  just pointing out that  monitors on stands will have  the same footprint so don't  overlook   the floor standers.

With regards to the roundovers on the vertical edges of the  speakers,  they   really should be at least .5"  or larger to  actually help reduce defraction so keep that in mind if you   going to do one of the above methods  for veneer / hardwood.   If you  are  adding the rouindovers  strictly for cosmetic purposes,  you  can  do whatever  size  you   desire so

jay

Here's the pics Jay's talking about, X-MTM Encores in black, N3s in Pau Fero veneer.







Mike

Jmitchell3

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #12 on: 5 Dec 2019, 04:12 am »
Those look great. There’s a gent here in town that has the xstatics and I’m gonna try to go listen to them. I’m considering those studio monitors, and these x-mtm towers. Do you have any thoughts on how these might compare? It’s so hard to know without being able to listen ahead of time lol.


Here's the pics Jay's talking about, X-MTM Encores in black, N3s in Pau Fero veneer.







Mike

mlundy57

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #13 on: 5 Dec 2019, 04:37 am »
Those look great. There’s a gent here in town that has the xstatics and I’m gonna try to go listen to them. I’m considering those studio monitors, and these x-mtm towers. Do you have any thoughts on how these might compare? It’s so hard to know without being able to listen ahead of time lol.

I haven't heard the new studio monitor yet so I can't say how they compare to the X-MTM Encores except that the Encores will play a lot deeper. I have a kit for the studio monitors here but it will be a few months before I can build something for myself.

Mike

Jmitchell3

Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #14 on: 5 Dec 2019, 05:37 am »
I have a kit for the studio monitors here but it will be a few months before I can build something for myself.

#firstworldproblems lol

I look forward to your build log!

roscoe65

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Re: Paralysis of analysis!
« Reply #15 on: 5 Dec 2019, 02:20 pm »
That's what Danny said. I had been trying to come up with a lower section for the studio monitors looking at both the M165-16 and 8" servo sub drivers. No matter how I tried to lay it out, by the time I had a box with the proper amount of internal space for the respective drivers, the stand was either too deep to look right (more than twice as deep as the monitor), or too wide for the monitor to image properly. Danny said too much reflective surface below the monitor. Finally I asked about using a typical HT setup of monitors on stands and the sub where it worked best. He said that would work since there would be nothing below the monitor to impair imaging and the crossover point was low enough to not localize the sub.

I’ve found a bit of a work around.  I own a pair of Rythmik F8 sealed subs.  The are 20” h x 11” w.  When used in conjunction with an Isoacoustics stand them make a perfect speaker stand for most monitors.  I have successfully used them with XLS Encores and Omega monitor speakers.  I would imagine they would work perfectly with the new GR Monitor speaker (which really tempts my right now).