Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits

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AmpDesigner333

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Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« on: 4 Nov 2019, 11:15 pm »
I'm putting a list together....  This is to summarize the advantages of Cherry amps versus tube amps (in general).  There are many variations to tube amps just as there are with Class-D.  In fact, Class-D is even more varied in implementation due to intricate circuits that are significantly more complex than tube amp circuits.  I could go into the different kinds of tube amps (design variations), but let's keep things simple here on both sides.  After all, we're not comparing tubes to just any Class-D.  We're comparing tubes to Cherry Class-D, which doesn't suffer from many of the problems with generic or module based Class-D amps.  So, the sound quality question is already answered, as you can read about in our reviews.  The consensus is that there's no "penalty" to Cherry Amps with respect to tubes.

So, here's the first shot at the list of Cherry Amps' advantages over tube amps:
  1. Lower noise
  2. Increased reliability
  3. Lower power consumption
  4. Lower distortion
  5. Higher bandwidth
  6. Lower output impedance
  7. End-to-end DC coupling
  8. Higher power

I'd like to expand and re-order this list in order of significance.  Any suggestions?



[photo of KING 2-CHerry amp]
« Last Edit: 20 Nov 2019, 08:09 pm by AmpDesigner333 »

SnowPuppy77

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Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #1 on: 4 Nov 2019, 11:40 pm »
Interesting.  I can tell you that your amps are on my shortlist for an upgrade in a year or two for driving a pair of the new Spatial M3 Sapphires.

RonN5

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #2 on: 5 Nov 2019, 01:28 am »
How about....

-  none of the problems associated with heat that power tubes generate

-  no replacement down the road of expensive power tubes

-  no deterioration in sound down the road as the power tubes approach the end of their lives

In addition to the 'advantages' list...it is also really important for the target audience to know that Cherry amplifiers have many of the sonic advantages of tubes (see below) as well as the sonic advantages of solid stage (also see below) and that is what makes them so special.

Often stated sonic advantages of tubes:
 
1.  soundstage realism, especially dimensionality
2.  musicality, warmth and smoothness

Often stated sonic advantages of solid state:

1.  power, dynamics, punch
2.  clarity and detail

In other words....there are good sounding tube amplifiers....there are good sounding solid state amplifiers...but there aren't too many amplifiers that give you the best of both worlds like the Cherries do!!

opnly bafld

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #3 on: 5 Nov 2019, 01:44 am »
deleted
« Last Edit: 5 Nov 2019, 03:34 am by opnly bafld »

Freo-1

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #4 on: 5 Nov 2019, 01:16 pm »
Here is a different perspective regarding the tube vs. SS debate:


https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes


Personally, I have both tube and SS systems, and enjoy both.  Each has it's own strengths and challenges. 

RonN5

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #5 on: 5 Nov 2019, 02:26 pm »
Freo 1

That was an interesting article and I think it points out a lot of good reasons why tube gear is still around and beloved by so many people.

In some respects, amplifiers are like ice cream....lots of flavors and even though you like chocolate most days, you may wake up and prefer butterscotch today.  In other words, there is no best....there are only preferences...and those can change over time.

There are plenty of people that love their tube gear or love their solid state gear and have no plans to ever switch.  No doubt there are also people with tube gear that love it but would switch to solid state if they heard the right gear....and there are people with solid state gear that would love to try tube gear but it just doesn't work for them....maybe the heat...maybe the height...who knows. 

My take on the Cherry amplifiers (I own the 2Cherry) is that they really do have a voicing/sonic signature that incorporates many of the desirable aspects of both tubes and solid state.  In that respect, they are a great choice for someone owning tubes that would like to try solid state but not lose the tube sound they appreciate....and they are a great choice for solid state owners that would really like to incorporate some of the tube sound without losing what they love about their solid state amp.

As I noted in my first post (above), one of the big surprises to me was the level of clarity that the 2Cherry provided (without any harshness) compared to the solid state amp I was using at the time.  In this respect, I'd say that the Cherry amps should be on the short list for auditioning for solid state owners just looking to improve their overall sense of realism.

Freo-1

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #6 on: 5 Nov 2019, 09:15 pm »
Good analogy. 


I find many of the aspects tied to the Cherry amp also present with the Devialet Expert series.  The clarity and dynamics with the Devialet are simply astounding. 


Still, I occasionally switch out the Devialet to listen to a custom tube setup, and find both systems immensely enjoyable.  As pointed out, it's a different flavor between tube and SS.   

AmpDesigner333

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Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #7 on: 5 Nov 2019, 10:07 pm »
Here is a different perspective regarding the tube vs. SS debate:


https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes


Personally, I have both tube and SS systems, and enjoy both.  Each has it's own strengths and challenges.
Thanks for the link, but the author sells tubes!  Super biased point of view there, and some serious misinformation to boot, like the “Until recently, the high-end market belonged almost entirely to solid-state equipment”.  That never happened.

There’s no joke in that the tube guys fear new technology like motor heads fear Tesla.

One thing that wasn’t really covered was the nostalgia effect.  That’s covered here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152357.0

The use of tubes in musical instrument devices is a totally different story.  This use doesn’t rely on faithful reproduction but rather the creation of certain sounds. As a musician, I can totally understand that part of the equation.

Freo-1

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #8 on: 5 Nov 2019, 10:25 pm »
Thanks for the link, but the author sells tubes!  Super biased point of view there, and some serious misinformation to boot, like the “Until recently, the high-end market belonged almost entirely to solid-state equipment”.  That never happened.

There’s no joke in that the tube guys fear new technology like motor heads fear Tesla.

One thing that wasn’t really covered was the nostalgia effect.  That’s covered here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152357.0

The use of tubes in musical instrument devices is a totally different story.  This use doesn’t rely on faithful reproduction but rather the creation of certain sounds. As a musician, I can totally understand that part of the equation.


Keep in mind that this article was written quite some time ago.  At the time of this writing, Krell, Mark Levinson, and Threshold were the big players in the high end game. 


I found the section explaining distortion under test very interesting.  Turns out tubes are not so bad when applying a signal for gain. 

AmpDesigner333

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Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #9 on: 5 Nov 2019, 10:25 pm »
Cherry amplifier circuitry is very different than that of other Class-D amplifiers.   People tend to group amps into their general circuit topology, but there’s much more to this behind the scenes, such as the modulation circuits, which vary wildly among Class-D amps.  Another area is the feedback circuitry, which varies from the classic Class-AB simple feedback networks to the messy circuits of the “great on the bench, but not on the ears” amps of recent years.  Ironically, many Class-AB amps back in the 80s had the same issues.  My point is that generalizing amps sonically by output stage topology (Class-whatever) is like saying all red cars perform the same.

rodge827

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Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #10 on: 6 Nov 2019, 12:21 am »
is like saying all red cars perform the same.

They don’t??  :scratch:

witchdoctor

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #11 on: 6 Nov 2019, 01:51 am »
I don't know that tube vs solid state is the right question. I would ask it this way:

Switching to "Digital Amplifier Company" -- benefits:
1. etc

I have not tried your amps but it is clear from your circle that your product is unique. There are many, many class D amps, but only one Digital Amplifier Company right?




SET Man

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #12 on: 6 Nov 2019, 05:13 am »
Thanks for the link, but the author sells tubes!  Super biased point of view there, ....

Hey!

    Isn't that what you are doing on this post about your own class-D amps here also?

...

There’s no joke in that the tube guys fear new technology like motor heads fear Tesla.

.....

    Yes, I've been using tube for a little over half of my life and no, I don't have fear of new technology. Is just that I have not found any SS or class-D amps that I liked enough for me to considering it to replace my current SET amps so far.

    But to be fair. I have not heard your amps. So, I can't say if yours is good or not. Who knows!? You might have the best amp in the world! Or not.

    Well, the beauty of sound reproduction is in the ears of the beholder.

Buddy

   

Wind Chaser

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #13 on: 6 Nov 2019, 07:42 am »
But to be fair. I have not heard your amps. So, I can't say if yours is good or not. Who knows!?

I know this much, these amps are far better than all of the SET amps I have tried over the years.

Buddy, I dare you to try a Maraschino. I bet it will blow your mind. It will mark a turning point in your audio journey.  :wink:






RonN5

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #14 on: 6 Nov 2019, 01:34 pm »
My son is really into guitars....electric, bass, acoustic and amplified acoustic.  Over the years he has owned a ton of equipment...both solid state and tube to play his guitars.  His absolute strong preference is for his tube gear...and he fully admits that it is because his tube gear distorts in a way that (sounds) better to his ears. 

My take on this for home audio is not about tube distortion...but about how tube gear often has more synergy with less than perfect rooms resulting in a more enjoyable sound...less top end harshness...more dimensional...etc.

I'm not sure how tommy has done it but he has managed to capture the essence of tubes along with some of the strengths of some of the better solid state amps.  I don't see this as a "battle of the specs" or a my amp is better than your amp kind of thing.  Tommy's amps sound great and will appeal to a lot of people who own tube amps and a lot of people who own solid state amps




opnly bafld

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #15 on: 6 Nov 2019, 02:12 pm »
Hey!

    Isn't that what you are doing on this post about your own class-D amps here also?

    Yes, I've been using tube for a little over half of my life and no, I don't have fear of new technology. Is just that I have not found any SS or class-D amps that I liked enough for me to considering it to replace my current SET amps so far.

    But to be fair. I have not heard your amps. So, I can't say if yours is good or not. Who knows!? You might have the best amp in the world! Or not.

    Well, the beauty of sound reproduction is in the ears of the beholder.

Buddy

 


 :thumb:

opnly bafld

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #16 on: 6 Nov 2019, 02:15 pm »
So what cables do you guys use?
 :wink:

RonN5

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #17 on: 6 Nov 2019, 02:51 pm »
Cables Currently In Use:

Power Cables - player, preamp, subwoofer are Pangea cords as for the power amp...tried Pangea, Shunyata, and various stock....using the stock cord

Connecting Cables - using Blue Jeans Cables...their LC1 cable

Speaker cables (from the 2Cherry to Salk Veracity ST loudspeakers) are home made....here are the specs on the wiring...
four conductor 14 awg per conductor, foil shielded, 63 individual strands of 99.99% oxygen free copper per conductor, cross connected to create 11 gage to each speaker...using sewell banana plugs

Just my own observation over the years....moving my speakers 6-12" has always made more difference than changing cables...and with the thousands of cables out there, its impossible to try them all.

witchdoctor

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #18 on: 6 Nov 2019, 04:29 pm »
Cables Currently In Use:

Power Cables - player, preamp, subwoofer are Pangea cords as for the power amp...tried Pangea, Shunyata, and various stock....using the stock cord

Connecting Cables - using Blue Jeans Cables...their LC1 cable

Speaker cables (from the 2Cherry to Salk Veracity ST loudspeakers) are home made....here are the specs on the wiring...
four conductor 14 awg per conductor, foil shielded, 63 individual strands of 99.99% oxygen free copper per conductor, cross connected to create 11 gage to each speaker...using sewell banana plugs

Just my own observation over the years....moving my speakers 6-12" has always made more difference than changing cables...and with the thousands of cables out there, its impossible to try them all.

Do you mean moving speakers away from the wall, together , apart??

RonN5

Re: Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits
« Reply #19 on: 6 Nov 2019, 04:46 pm »
Honestly... I’d say every move has the potential to change the sound... including angling in out up down and moving further apart and together.. as well moving out from walls. For some speakers, the tweaking can result in big changes... for others not so much... the room usually matters a lot as part of the final tuning.