[aniwolfe]

Here is my setup. You Spatial owners need to try this....sound is unbelievable.

[Wind Chaser]

Here’s what I recommend.

Pull your speakers out as far as possible into the room, and keep them at least 3’ away from the side walls. The more room you give them to breathe the better they sound.

A wide soundstage is much better than a narrow soundstage so the listening position needs to be situated relatively closer to the speakers than the distance between the two speakers. The closer you sit, the broader the soundstage. For example, my speakers are 12’ apart from each other and my listening position is a little more than 8’ away from the speakers. At this intersection the angle between the two speakers is about 90 degrees, which is similar to the arrangement used by recording and mixing engineers in the studio. This creates a front row center experience.

After you have sorted out the above, turn the speakers so they are on axis pointed directly at you. Then relaxed listen with your eyes closed and make incremental adjustments to one speaker at a time. Take your time, listen carefully and be patient. You should be able to hear a difference even a very small / slight adjustment makes.

It took me 2 months to settle on what I believe is the best possible placement in my room. After much experimentation I have found that the height of the speakers in relation to the ears also makes a difference. So after much experimentation I settled on the ideal height and built my own risers that also serve as isolation platforms.

[aniwolfe]

Here’s what I recommend.

Pull your speakers out as far as possible into the room, and keep them at least 3’ away from the side walls. The more room you give them to breathe the better they sound.

A wide soundstage is much better than a narrow soundstage so the listening position needs to be situated relatively closer to the speakers than the distance between the two speakers. The closer you sit, the broader the soundstage. For example, my speakers are 12’ apart from each other and my listening position is a little more than 8’ away from the speakers. At this intersection the angle between the two speakers is about 90 degrees, which is similar to the arrangement used by recording and mixing engineers in the studio. This creates a front row center experience.

After you have sorted out the above, turn the speakers so they are on axis pointed directly at you. Then relaxed listen with your eyes closed and make incremental adjustments to one speaker at a time. Take your time, listen carefully and be patient. You should be able to hear a difference even a very small / slight adjustment makes.

It took me 2 months to settle on what I believe is the best possible placement in my room. After much experimentation I have found that the height of the speakers in relation to the ears also makes a difference. So after much experimentation I settled on the ideal height and built my own risers that also serve as isolation platforms.

Thats great advice. However did you try this extreme toe-in method? I just want to hear from at least one Spatial owner that has tried it? Good or Bad results

Within the constraints of my room this is the most I can bring out my speakers (23"- 37"). I have tried your method and how I have it setup is the best I have heard the Spatials. I have a wide soundstage that is very addictive to listen to. Center image is locked and very holographic.

Anyone want to join S.E.T.C.? SPATIAL EXTREME TOE-IN CLUB? Its FREE just like the speaker setup method.

[Wind Chaser]

Thats great advice. However did you try this extreme toe-in method?

I spent two months doing this. When you take your time making systematic incremental adjustments you’ll know when you’ve swung too far one way or the other. This method allows you to hone in on the best possible result but it takes time and requires patience, it’s not something you do in few hours. Subtle adjustments make a difference to the discerning ear. Most people put far too little effort into placement without ever coming close to getting the optimum result. Cookie cutter methods like the equilateral triangle and Cardas method etc are fine as starting points, hell anything is better than simply putting them wherever one thinks they otta go.

[aniwolfe]

I spent two months doing this. When you take your time making systematic incremental adjustments you’ll know when you’ve swung too far one way or the other. This method allows you to hone in on the best possible result but it takes time and requires patience, it’s not something you do in few hours. Subtle adjustments make a difference to the discerning ear. Most people put far too little effort into placement without ever coming close to getting the optimum result. Cookie cutter methods like the equilateral triangle and Cardas method etc are fine as starting points, hell anything is better than simply putting them wherever one thinks they otta go.

Windchaser...Did you try this extreme toe-in method?

[glynnw]

I just tried this with my M3TMs and not good for me.  I have experimented all over the place for almost 50 years and keep coming back to a triangle with speakers aimed at my head.  Only exception is when I toe out to alleviate a too hot tweeter.  This is probably room dependent.  What does work for me is my QOL unit.  Expands stage to well outside speakers with no downside to my ears.  Too bad it isn't made any longer.
If you find one, buy it.

[ric]

With my M3TS, I DID try extreme toe-in AND toe-out, and I agree with WindChaser that incremental movements over time work best to allow you to hear and adjust and REMEMBER what you are hearing. I have no doubt that WC's setup works great for his room, BUT, rooms are different, ears are different etc., and you have to decide. For myself, I tend to get ear fatigue (listening to subtle differences) so it's best to let things settle in.
In my space I have the speakers about 8' apart and sit about 9' from the respective speakers. They are toed in a bit which means where I sit there is a partial wall about 18" behind my head, using a laser pointer I have the outside edge of the speaker/plane pointed about 15" on each side of the wall, where my head position is, if that makes any sense. Don't know about the math.
Just do what works best for you in your room and you should hear pin point imaging and with the right recordings huge sound stage!

[aniwolfe]

With my M3TS, I DID try extreme toe-in AND toe-out, and I agree with WindChaser that incremental movements over time work best to allow you to hear and adjust and REMEMBER what you are hearing. I have no doubt that WC's setup works great for his room, BUT, rooms are different, ears are different etc., and you have to decide. For myself, I tend to get ear fatigue (listening to subtle differences) so it's best to let things settle in.
In my space I have the speakers about 8' apart and sit about 9' from the respective speakers. They are toed in a bit which means where I sit there is a partial wall about 18" behind my head, using a laser pointer I have the outside edge of the speaker/plane pointed about 15" on each side of the wall, where my head position is, if that makes any sense. Don't know about the math.
Just do what works best for you in your room and you should hear pin point imaging and with the right recordings huge sound stage!

Thanks Ric for your response. I like to keeping an open mind about things regardless about what I am told I should do from experts or reviewers. I have tried for months making many adjustments...ET is so far my favorite for my room.

[SFDude]

I just tried this. Hated it. It was as if the image went from solid between the speakers to being somewhat confused in my setup. Center image still held but soundstage just went out of whack. (That is the only way to describe it.)

I also lost some depth, despite my setup not being able to provide depth in the soundstage much. Which is not what I would expect.

Just another data point for you.

-dave

[HanaEyes]

I've only finally managed to find time to try this extreme toe in method. Toed in prior to any music playing and after toeing in, then I started up a couple of tracks.

Unfortunately, this method didn't work in my room either. The centre imaging sounded compressed and diffused at the same time, not sure how that's possible. It just sounded hollow, yet congested, as if the singer was having a flu - almost sounding out of phase. Soundstage got narrower and though I expected the depth to increase, that wasn't the case. Depth actually decreased, and everything else wasn't coherent enough for me to enjoy it..

Oh well.. least I tried.

[Shakeydeal]

I tried it too. Didn't work for me either. The most natural position in my room is with the speakers crossing just behind my head.

Shakey

[aniwolfe]

HAHAHA made you do it

M3 Sapphires on order.... I will try with those as well.

[rollo]

  May I suggest trying them as far apart as possible firing straight ahead. Keep moving apart the center image is lost then move back until back. Then move your listening chair about the same distance as center to center between speakers. Then play with toe-in. Also should be a minimum of 1/3 out into room. Have fun.


charles

[SnowPuppy77]

HAHAHA made you do it

M3 Sapphires on order.... I will try with those as well.

In my room I had the M3TM with fairly aggressive toe in crossing a few inches in front of my face.  So far with the M3 Sapphires I am using less toe in aimed more near the ears.  Of course that may change some as I am still early in the process.

[Skyhigh]

I am glad I came across this thread. I tried the extreme toe-in with my X1’s, It worked great in my 18x17 room!

[James Edward]

Thread resurrection…
I am just today doing the extreme toe-in with my M3 Turbo S speakers. A worthwhile setup in my room. I had always used a laser measure to get everything just ‘right’ for toe and distance. I went from aiming at my ears to crossing in front about 2.5 feet.
I MUCH prefer the presentation this way. My room is an odd shape, and always a challenge; not only did the extreme toe-in really anchor the center image, it seems to have done so without hampering soundstage width. Depth increased too. I wish I’d have done this sooner. Aesthetics plays a role though- my room opens to the dining room, and only an audio buff will appreciate seeing more of the back of the M3’s…
I’ve tried the off-axis seats and couch, where I do most of my listening, and the center image seems pretty solid there too.
So, preliminarily, I’ve got to agree with aniwolfe, though it’s been four years since he espoused this.

[Mr. Big]

Thread resurrection…
I am just today doing the extreme toe-in with my M3 Turbo S speakers. A worthwhile setup in my room. I had always used a laser measure to get everything just ‘right’ for toe and distance. I went from aiming at my ears to crossing in front about 2.5 feet.
I MUCH prefer the presentation this way. My room is an odd shape, and always a challenge; not only did the extreme toe-in really anchor the center image, it seems to have done so without hampering soundstage width. Depth increased too. I wish I’d have done this sooner. Aesthetics plays a role though- my room opens to the dining room, and only an audio buff will appreciate seeing more of the back of the M3’s…
I’ve tried the off-axis seats and couch, where I do most of my listening, and the center image seems pretty solid there too.
So, preliminarily, I’ve got to agree with aniwolfe, though it’s been four years since he espoused this.

You're making a good point each and every room is different, so unless you open your mind and try something you never know. In audio speaker setup, you have to "learn" how the speakers interact with your room and you can only do that by playing with them because the acoustics of a given room impact the sound we hear. It never ceases to amaze me how much it does and when I see pictures of systems where $$$$ or more is spent and see little money spent on room acoustics, with a couch butting up to the speaker's sides, chairs on the other, open glass windows and so on, and I ask why to spend so much on the gear and so little to make a good listening room. I recently changed my listening room acoustic panels to freshen up the room after painting, I had to learn on they would impact the sound and place them in the best spots. The sound could go from huge and transparent but lacking deep bass to lots of bass but lacking air, so we have to find the in-between and after 3 years I nailed it. On mono recording the image is just open between the speakers with believable imaging, but the scary thing is when you hear a vocalist, they are so tone right and real you picture faces in your head that is the brain connecting to the face and seeing the artist on video and saying that is that person. Stereo is spread out evenly from speaker to speaker and is rock solid and stable with deep and natural transparency with brightness. So, in short, the speakers now are lock on and working together and a speaker I enjoyed before is now something special, no gear changes or cables just $900 in new panels. and I used a few of the old panels, the corner bass traps, and absortion panel on the front wall and 3 in my windows, with the sides walls a combination of absorption and diffusion panels.

[James Edward]

Day 2- still digging the imaging and depth that this provided.
Some measurements so we’re comparing apples to apples- the Turbos are 7 ft apart, tweeter to tweeter. My listening chair is about 9.5 ft from each speaker. The left speaker has a true corner, the right opens to a dining room.
The speakers are 2’11” from the inside corner, 3’10” from the outside corner to the front wall. This shows the fairly extreme toe-in.
It’s a living room, so it’s pretty well damped- curtains, couch, 2 chairs, 9x12 rug. Room size itself is approximately 12’ x 16’ with a vaulted ceiling. But it opens to a dining room, and the entire back opens to a hallway and a short set of stairs.
I don’t think extreme toe-in would work as well with a wide dispersion tweeter- the Turbos I believe have an 80 degree dispersion pattern. This is major, as I am pretty sure that ‘modern’ Spatials don’t use the compression tweeter and it’s dispersion pattern. That would explain the varying results.

[James Edward]

Another thing, an interesting side effect is that I’ve turned down my subs one hash mark each- maybe I was compensating with bass for the extra tweeter output directed at my listening position.
Everything matters in this hobby/obsession/fixation/neurosis…

[Mr. Big]

Another thing, an interesting side effect is that I’ve turned down my subs one hash mark each- maybe I was compensating with bass for the extra tweeter output directed at my listening position.
Everything matters in this hobby/obsession/fixation/neurosis…

Yes, you were trying to balance the tweeter and how it was positioned towards you with the sub and get a better balance.  Now it's not needed. Good news because it means you are trying new things and learning about your speaker's inaction within your room and when they sound their best. Now enjoy your work.