Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers

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mix4fix

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #60 on: 10 Oct 2019, 10:03 pm »
C.A.F. is in three weeks. We demand results.

 :whip:

(now, get to work or we will taunt you again)

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #61 on: 11 Oct 2019, 12:12 am »
To clarify a couple of things: I am not proposing a "bookshelf" system but am looking at two systems, one a stand mount monitor (9"w X 20" tall?) and the other a small floor stander.

Cool! Thanks for clearing it up.

Quote
Several of you have echoed my sentiment that it is best to use a subwoofer for room filling bass extension than compromise the main system. Spot on! :thumb:

Fair, but I would caution about taking that notion to the extent that some have mentioned earlier - 80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz...  because in that ballpark of low frequency extension limitation, particularly if you are talking about a premium (priced) product, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any who wouldn't say that for a speaker system using the proposed speaker a subwoofer is no longer optional but a basic requirement.  If a subwoofer becomes all but required to be satisfactory, the total system cost now needs to include both what are supposed to be a more entry-point taste of Daedalus and, what, a pair of BOW at the minimum?  $5K becomes $10-15K real quick, and then you're back in the ballpark of just going with a Muse (or Muse Studio) as your entry point and being further ahead. 

That's why I thought with the efficiency you mentioned targeting, the 50Hz extension target was a very intriguing twist.  For what little it is worth, I've swapped out sealed MTM 6.5" 2-ways rolling off at 60Hz for ported TM 6.5" 2-ways (using the same tweeters and midrange drivers) that roll off in the mid-low 50s specifically because the ported speakers could enjoyably be played alone with most of my music, where the sealed speakers just couldn't get it done.  It may sound silly (and I know there is probably a line of people who will argue the chestnuts about imperceptible localization below 80Hz, etc.) but I feel not only is that frequency range key to the exercise but how that frequency range is handled - particularly if that is going to be the bottom - really matters.

Ultimately, my post is to say when planning this idea, if the idea is for the speakers to be a starting off point that a customer could build upon and grow over time, making sure a customer could be happy with say 90% of their music with just the two speakers they get to start with until subs and such get in to the budget is important.  If they are meant as basically a trade-up demo, or as really part of a turn-key satellite/sub swarm solution from the onset, where and how the low end is handled becomes a lot more flexible, but you'll be losing the real $5K cost of entry if that was a goal.

Jon

mresseguie

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #62 on: 11 Oct 2019, 06:45 pm »
Lou,

I may be interested in such a pair of speakers.

Do you suppose front-ported would be an option (if they will be ported)?

Michael
« Last Edit: 11 Oct 2019, 07:47 pm by mresseguie »

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #63 on: 12 Oct 2019, 02:26 am »
Cool! Thanks for clearing it up.

Fair, but I would caution about taking that notion to the extent that some have mentioned earlier - 80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz...  because in that ballpark of low frequency extension limitation, particularly if you are talking about a premium (priced) product, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any who wouldn't say that for a speaker system using the proposed speaker a subwoofer is no longer optional but a basic requirement.  If a subwoofer becomes all but required to be satisfactory, the total system cost now needs to include both what are supposed to be a more entry-point taste of Daedalus and, what, a pair of BOW at the minimum?  $5K becomes $10-15K real quick, and then you're back in the ballpark of just going with a Muse (or Muse Studio) as your entry point and being further ahead. 

That's why I thought with the efficiency you mentioned targeting, the 50Hz extension target was a very intriguing twist.  For what little it is worth, I've swapped out sealed MTM 6.5" 2-ways rolling off at 60Hz for ported TM 6.5" 2-ways (using the same tweeters and midrange drivers) that roll off in the mid-low 50s specifically because the ported speakers could enjoyably be played alone with most of my music, where the sealed speakers just couldn't get it done.  It may sound silly (and I know there is probably a line of people who will argue the chestnuts about imperceptible localization below 80Hz, etc.) but I feel not only is that frequency range key to the exercise but how that frequency range is handled - particularly if that is going to be the bottom - really matters.

Ultimately, my post is to say when planning this idea, if the idea is for the speakers to be a starting off point that a customer could build upon and grow over time, making sure a customer could be happy with say 90% of their music with just the two speakers they get to start with until subs and such get in to the budget is important.  If they are meant as basically a trade-up demo, or as really part of a turn-key satellite/sub swarm solution from the onset, where and how the low end is handled becomes a lot more flexible, but you'll be losing the real $5K cost of entry if that was a goal.

Jon

I'm shooting for flat to 50hz with a gradual rolloff so still solid down to the 30's, we'll see how close we can get  :D

the idea is a stand alone system that when coupled with a sub would be a full range high end system.  btw assuming I get flat to 50hz one sub is fine and it doesn't "have" to be one of mine.

as to the port, yes on the smaller system I would definitely use a front port, on the larger mttm system it may be front as well, nit sure yet?

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #64 on: 12 Oct 2019, 02:30 pm »
I'm shooting for flat to 50hz with a gradual rolloff so still solid down to the 30's, we'll see how close we can get  :D

Thanks again for answering!

Quote
the idea is a stand alone system that when coupled with a sub would be a full range high end system.  btw assuming I get flat to 50hz one sub is fine and it doesn't "have" to be one of mine.

Tangent question: what do you think about using your new 10" driver to build a sub?  Kind of a mini-BOW?  If the driver parameters would be feasible, and you could find a high enough quality plate amp, a sealed 10" sub (or maybe even the 8"?) might be a solid foundation to this new proposed Daedalus system?

Jon

LesterSleepsIn

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #65 on: 12 Oct 2019, 08:53 pm »
I'm still here! Just taking in the comments, which btw I REALLY appreciate everyone taking the time to help!

To clarify a couple of things: I am not proposing a "bookshelf" system but am looking at two systems, one a stand mount monitor (9"w X 20" tall?)


Oh, darn. I thought you were thinking about big box Spendor/Harbeth size.

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #66 on: 12 Oct 2019, 09:04 pm »
Thanks again for answering!

Tangent question: what do you think about using your new 10" driver to build a sub?  Kind of a mini-BOW?  If the driver parameters would be feasible, and you could find a high enough quality plate amp, a sealed 10" sub (or maybe even the 8"?) might be a solid foundation to this new proposed Daedalus system?

Jon

Interesting idea but my 10" and 8" are not optimum for that use. They are tailored for bass/mid-bass not for low bass. The cabinets would be too large. But the big reason I don't really want to go there is that there are a lot of options out there for self powered subs, and many of them do a very good job.  I try to create products that fill an needed niche or that have their own unique approach. I resisted building a sub for years, but finally decided to build one without making many of the compromises we usually see. Such as internal XO, plate amps again inside the cabinet. Can you imagine the vibrations going on inside of a subwoofer cabinet? So I designed a sub that has an external electronic XO, that the user would mate with the amp of their choice which would be most suitable for them and that is also very efficient.  btw we will be showing the subs (BOW) at CAF next month in our large room with the Apollo11, and we will power them with fairly low power TUBE amps from LTA! :popcorn:  I don't recall ever seeing subs at a show powered by tubes?

One of the considerations in designing the drivers and enclosures is a smooth low end roll off. That helps them mate easily and musically with a sub. If we find that the small system I am discussing goes off a cliff after the -3db point that would pretty much kill the idea for me. I am confident though that we can get a smooth extension.

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #67 on: 12 Oct 2019, 09:06 pm »
Oh, darn. I thought you were thinking about big box Spendor/Harbeth size.

we already do big and mid size "boxes", though not the squat shape of Harbeths..

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #68 on: 12 Oct 2019, 10:22 pm »
Interesting idea but my 10" and 8" are not optimum for that use.

Understood; the idea just came to mind thinking it might be an option for folks trying to build a physically small Daedalus system with these new designs that would want to stay within the brand, and for which the BOW cabinet is maybe too big.

Quote
I resisted building a sub for years, but finally decided to build one without making many of the compromises we usually see. Such as internal XO, plate amps again inside the cabinet. Can you imagine the vibrations going on inside of a subwoofer cabinet? So I designed a sub that has an external electronic XO, that the user would mate with the amp of their choice which would be most suitable for them and that is also very efficient.  btw we will be showing the subs (BOW) at CAF next month in our large room with the Apollo11, and we will power them with fairly low power TUBE amps from LTA! :popcorn:  I don't recall ever seeing subs at a show powered by tubes?

I'm probably in a minority that things such a thing matters (...because DSP and more power!...) but I think the high efficiency of the BOW is one of the unsung heroes of that design, and particularly with mains similarly efficient, I think an important part of system matching and synergy between mains and subs.

Trying to not take this thread even further off track from the proposed 2-ways, considering your heritage in pro audio, I'm curious if you've ever considered or prototyped an active crossover for one of your audiophile speaker models?  In a Daedalus system including BOW, considering the BOW need a high-quality DSP/crossover unit already anyway, it got me thinking that something like the Danville system Rich Hollis has been working with (which uses high quality DACs and such) could be something worth tinkering with.  Looking further around AudioCircle, Bryston seems to be getting some traction with their active setups as of late in their audiophile customer base? (I hope you don't mind as this is a new ideas thread if it goes off script a bit?)

Quote
One of the considerations in designing the drivers and enclosures is a smooth low end roll off. That helps them mate easily and musically with a sub. If we find that the small system I am discussing goes off a cliff after the -3db point that would pretty much kill the idea for me. I am confident though that we can get a smooth extension.

I'm presuming you're talking about looking for a smooth and gradual roll off with that statement as a primary goal?  The only reason I call to clarify the distinction is because a speaker that goes from an honest 50Hz, with a smooth transition to 30Hz, with a smooth drop off a cliff after that still makes for a pretty satisfying speaker for a lot of people with a lot of music, no?  It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater (not to mention a driver you could make a controlled steep roll off with in a compact enclosure space opens up some possibilities in making a solid midrange in a passive 3-way using pretty aggressive crossover slopes, no?)

Jon

denoiad

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #69 on: 12 Oct 2019, 11:58 pm »
I would definitely be interested.  I have searched a long time for a small speaker with high efficiency. 

My thoughts are... keep it as small as possible in all dimensions.   I myself am constrained in the physical size morethan most.   34h x 8.25w x 12d is the max I can do.

I also second the front port,  most people looking for a compact system usually need to push it up close to the wall, that includes the towers. 

I would also suggest driver selection that accommodates tube amps with no feedback. As I understand (I'm not technical in this area) this limits damping factor. Most modern drivers use rubber or foam surrounds, which I don't think do great with these systems.  I've had better luck with vintage speakers in this area with fabric surrounds. 

keep the impedance a minimum of 8 ohms, higher is better....  Again for tube amp. 

If you are offering a pre-order discount, please let me know. 



beaglebump

Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #70 on: 15 Oct 2019, 04:09 am »
Is there room to supercharge the Athena?  To me, I see a strong attraction/need for a modest 3-way floorstander, smaller profile than the Apollo, narrower front baffle, w/ a small footprint that can throw a presentation well beyond its size.     

Folsom

Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #71 on: 18 Oct 2019, 02:02 am »
It looks like the thought recently occurred to another manufacturer.

I applaud anyone who can make something over 91db, and useful, that's a bookshelf style. Bipolar would be a way to help. You loose a lot just from having no baffle... so even if you start up somewhere fairly high, keeping that isn't easy. And then the driver has to be able to play low? There's a reason this is the least seen speaker in the industry.

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #72 on: 20 Oct 2019, 06:54 pm »
Is there room to supercharge the Athena?  To me, I see a strong attraction/need for a modest 3-way floorstander, smaller profile than the Apollo, narrower front baffle, w/ a small footprint that can throw a presentation well beyond its size.     

That is pretty much what I am looking at... a smaller high efficiency reference quality speaker. The Athena and Muse are as small as can be done with the 8" driver.

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #73 on: 20 Oct 2019, 06:55 pm »
It looks like the thought recently occurred to another manufacturer.

I applaud anyone who can make something over 91db, and useful, that's a bookshelf style. Bipolar would be a way to help. You loose a lot just from having no baffle... so even if you start up somewhere fairly high, keeping that isn't easy. And then the driver has to be able to play low? There's a reason this is the least seen speaker in the industry.

Yes this seems like a niche that should be filled, but it won't be inexpensive.  :thumb:

audiotom

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #74 on: 24 Oct 2019, 05:20 am »
Lou

Would the smaller cabinet have a challenge to make something without a slight resonance "box signature" and maintain that disappearing quality the other Daedalus speakers have? Dampening?

For a SET  amp this could be a match made in heaven.
Chamber music, acoustic rock and jazz would sound excellent without a sub.

You meantioned a smaller off-brand single sub (you need a balance between the two speaker monitor which wouldnt have the large Daedalus sound and a goodmedium presence sub.  You dont want to overpower it. A JL Audio E110 or E112 would be great - affordable - impactful power and precise tonality.  My friend has one with a system that rolls off at 80 hz, My home theatre uses a Fathom F113 - both excellent sounding.