Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.

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Longandstraight

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Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« on: 7 Oct 2019, 05:24 pm »
Hey all,
I have a current attached 30x23 garage that I am turning into an all purpose room with the focus on Audio.  I am looking at a couple of wall systems and am open to just about anything. 2x6 construction of interior walls and 2x4 on the already finished interior perimeter walls. For HVAC I am using a Mini split system so no worries with leakage there. The Finished listening area will be 29x18x10. I am going with a swarm sub system trying to eliminate the use of traps etc.
Currently a slab naturally but installing a 2x8 sleeper floor that will be finished with LVP ( Luxury Vinyl Planking ). Not sure how to treat the floor.  I will have a 48 inch doorway leading into the room that will be solid slab barn style doors ( I will figure out a gasket system for the doors)  Also a 9ft opening on the rear wall leading to the yard which will probably a triple pane doorwall, but open to ideas.
Sound leakage is my number one concern. Either into the existing house or outside as I need to be respectful of my neighbors.
Thanks for any tips or tricks,
Russ

mresseguie

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #1 on: 7 Oct 2019, 06:43 pm »
Hi, Russ.

Sounds like a great project. I'll be happy to buy the house next door.... :lol:

If your floor and/or walls aren't already finished, consider using Green Glue with an extra layer of flooring or drywall. Green Glue:  https://www.greengluecompany.com/

Another idea is to use mass loaded vinyl (MLV) on the floor beneath the LVP.

You might PM AC member 'JLM' for ideas. He has a dedicated listening room, and tends to be very helpful given his insights to constructing a listening room.

Have fun!

Michael

Longandstraight

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #2 on: 7 Oct 2019, 08:04 pm »
Thanks Michael
Yes double drywall with Green Glue is on the menu. Just wondered what wall clip may be the best.
Like your idea on the flooring.
Certainly will be a project. I am raising the ceiling 2 ft while building a new garage off the front of the existing garage.
Hoping to break ground shortly as all permits are in.

mresseguie

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #3 on: 9 Oct 2019, 01:05 am »
Russ,

Did you end up buying that dB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC? If yes, how did it work out for you in your system?

I still own my Tranquility SE, and have it in my secondary system.

Michael

Mike in NC

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #4 on: 9 Oct 2019, 01:18 am »
What great dimensions! I'm jealous.

Minimizing sound leakage (in or out) requires careful construction. That includes using acoustic caulk at all wall junctions and adding putty pads around electrical boxes. It may be wise to minimize the number of penetrations in the walls or ceiling by planning floor lamps instead of cans or other fixtures, for example.

The QuietRock site used to have an installation sheet that went over all of that. The product has changed hands, but I'll bet you can find that with a little looking.

And YES to double-layer walls with Green Glue (or single-layer walls with Quiet Rock or the equivalent). I also used solid-core gasketed doors and added aluminum/rubber sound seals on the door to the listening area. The Soundproofing Company is a good source for door seals and related items, as well as information free for the taking.

Longandstraight

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #5 on: 9 Oct 2019, 02:30 am »
Hi Michael,
I ended up with a Cary DMS 600. Good enough to get rid of my Microzotl 2.0s tube preamp.
Really nice piece.

Longandstraight

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #6 on: 9 Oct 2019, 02:45 am »
Thanks Mike,
I will be an all purpose room for entertaining also.  People have told me to use rain and ice shield roofing material between the drywall sheets. I looked at samples today looks like it may work

It will have a coffered ceiling so that should help with the sound.  I do love cans so I will make sure they are treated the best I can with a gasket . The wife can’t figure out why I don’t want leather furniture

JLM

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #7 on: 9 Oct 2019, 01:34 pm »
Reporting for duty...

First, recommend reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition.

Second, tweak the room dimensions to achieve more ideal ratios in order to reduce standing waves.  I followed the Fibonacci ratios: 8ft x 13ft x 21ft, in your case: 10ft x 16.25ft x 26.25ft.

Third, eliminate the window wall.

Fourth, revise proposed framing scheme:  use insulated staggered stud walls (vary stud spacing if you wish); and replace 2x8 sleeper floor with styrofoam and plywood on top for better thermal insulation and eliminate any resonating voids.

Fifth, consider going with small furnace-A/C unit that uses flexible insulated ductwork (can barely hear my furnace using it).

Sixth, replace barn door with exterior insulated fiberglass door with weather seal (works great for me, if you want add two in-line to create an air lock).

Seventh, run a separate circuit for the audio gear.

Longandstraight

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #8 on: 9 Oct 2019, 02:31 pm »
   "First, recommend reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition."

Thanks I will check it out 

"Second, tweak the room dimensions to achieve more ideal ratios in order to reduce standing waves.  I followed the Fibonacci ratios: 8ft x 13ft x 21ft, in your case: 10ft x 16.25ft x 26.25ft."

I can do that as two of the walls will not be fixed. I hate to give up the space though. I am relying on the Swarm sub system to take care of any standing wave issue

"Third, revise proposed framing scheme:  use insulated staggered stud walls (vary stud spacing if you wish); and replace 2x8 sleeper floor with styrofoam and plywood on top for better thermal insulation and eliminate any resonating voids."

Yes I will have two walls with staggered studs with 2x8 not sure of fill material yet. The other two exterior walls are already 2x4 construction insulated w/ double drywall  which will have 2x4 walls built over the top of them. The floor I am not to sure of. So you are saying Stryofoam over the current cement floor and plywood? I need to raise my floor as I plan on running gas and electrical lines in chases. My dedicated lines will be in the floor. The only cords visible will be the speaker wire on elevators. Clean custom install

"Fourth, replace noisy mini-split with small furnace-A/C unit that uses flexible insulated ductwork (can barely hear my furnace using it)."

  The splits have come a long way. Absoloute best way to go. No ductwork for sound travel. Efficient and interior db range in the low 40's
 
 "Fifth, replace barn door with exterior insulated fiberglass door with weather seal (works great for me, if you want add two in-line to create an air lock)."

Barn doors will be solid core 1 3/4" thick. These will be on both sides of the 4 ft opening getting into the room from the main house. There is a 4 and 1/2 foot wide gap in between the 2 door systems. I will figure out a gasket system

"Sixth, eliminate the window wall."

The 9 ft doorwall is the only exterior outlet. It is currently a roll up garage door leading to a patio area with a hot tub.  I guess I will find the best triple pane doorwall and use heavy drapes on the inside.

Thanks for the tips. What type of wall system did you use?.  If you would link your thread I could catch up.
Thanks,
Russ






WGH

Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #9 on: 9 Oct 2019, 07:03 pm »
 
Barn doors will be solid core 1 3/4" thick. These will be on both sides of the 4 ft opening getting into the room from the main house. There is a 4 and 1/2 foot wide gap in between the 2 door systems. I will figure out a gasket system

Barn doors will be very complicated to noise proof. I have been designing and building custom doors for 40 years and if a customer asked for a weatherproof barn door for an entry I would tell them it can't be done.

You will need to use a combination of tubeseals, sweeps and filpperseals for a job as complicated as this, I would first design the sound seal system then design the door to fit within the system. Most general contractors and builders want to hurry up to get the job done which means first put up the door then try to find something to seal it, good luck with that approach.

A rabbeted edge with weatherstrip where the two doors meet would keep sound out but finding/inventing sliding door hardware to lock the door is tricky.


Options are a T-Astrigal or Meeting Style Astrigals which can get pricey, the Reese 195 is $260
https://reeseusa.com/products/weatherstrip

Scour the Pemko catalog for weather strip solutions
https://www.assaabloydooraccessories.us/en/

I have been using Conservation Technology weatherstripping for decades, they have designs and profiles not found anywhere else. Their weatheseals are made from super flexible silicon rubber and are the best.
http://www.conservationtechnology.com/

JLM

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #10 on: 9 Oct 2019, 11:42 pm »
Follow-up...

Regarding room dimensions, why fight less than an ideal room?  I use a 3 sub swarm as well and even with ten GIK 244 panels still have significant peaks at frequencies that correspond to the room width/length.  I gave up space to reach fibonacci ratios.  You could have built-ins or storage space with the left over spaces (I didn't bother).

Regarding wall construction, type of insulation is of secondary importance, but do provide a gap for insulation between existing and proposed 2x4 stud walls.  Some recommend 2x6 studs and 5/8 or double 1/2 drywall (with Green Glue) to improve wall stiffness.   I just used 2x4 staggered studs on 16 inch centers with 2x6 top and bottom plates, fiberglass insulation, and 1/2 inch drywall.  Relied on the concept more than extreme execution. 

Regarding floor, yes styrofoam on the slab with plywood on top.  Route gas/electrical lines between pieces of styrofoam.

Regarding mini-split, 40 dB is still fairly loud.  My furnace fan is barely perceivable from 20 feet away.

Regarding door, WGH makes good points.  No sliding joint will seal very well.

Regarding window wall, if you must have it, recommend Pella with the 13/16 inch air gap.  Used in for a cry room at the back of a chapel after hearing how much noise they cut out at a distributor along a busy road and it works very well.  But they will transmit more noise than any decent insulated wall. 

My room was included in the basement as part of a new build home.  The house was to be energy efficient and all interior walls were insulated, so finishing the basement was essential and as such developing my study (listening room front/office rear) was nearly a no cost extra.  The one splurge was 3 cryogenically treated 20 amp hospital grade duplex convenience receptacles and putting them on a separate ground that I did on a "while I was at it" premise.

Oh, and don't forget to insulate the ceiling/attic.  I did, but the recessed can lights are my room's weak link even though they're rated to be air tight and to be in contact with insulation and have insulation above them - suggest wall sconces (no ceiling penetrations).  Seems like a failure of sorts, but the room was spooky quiet for the first few weeks.  But now I hear footfalls and the washer/dryer above. 

Please do read "Sound Reproduction".
« Last Edit: 10 Oct 2019, 10:27 am by JLM »

Longandstraight

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #11 on: 10 Oct 2019, 01:10 pm »
Thank you very much for the replies.

I re-measured and looks like I can make a perfect golden ratio without too much effort.

Will check out gasket system. Locking is not an issue. Maybe a latch system pulling the doors together? This will be the biggest challenge.

I like the Pella doorwall as I have 40k of their Designers series doorwalls, and windows in my home now. Their prices have gotten out of control and may look at other brands. Spending 5 k on a doorwall is not in the budget.

I am really confident in the Iso Max clip system w/ double drywall, Green glue, staggered 2x6 on 2x8 plates. ( Lumber re-cycled  from the ceiling raising) , perimeter felt gaskets, acoustic caulks,etc  should control my sound leakage.  I feel with the 4 sub swarm system  along with different finishes ( 6ft floor to ceiling stacked stone FP),
Wool rugs, upholstered furniture should provide real good acoustics.  Not looking for perfection as it has to make everyday living sense.

Footings will be poured by the end of the month. The new garage will be built and then the existing garage ceiling will be raised and the build out will begin.
Will provide pics along the way. Goal is to be wrapped up by the end of January.

Thanks again for everyone's time.

Russ



Longandstraight

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #12 on: 10 Oct 2019, 04:30 pm »


 Going to go with solid core pocket doors instead of the barn doors.

Also Pella makes a  doorwall that uses 2 different thickness's of glass to reduce sound leakage.  Whats a few more bucks....

WGH

Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #13 on: 10 Oct 2019, 07:13 pm »

 Going to go with solid core pocket doors instead of the barn doors.

If the pocked door wall also uses a 2x8 plate I would frame the walls on each side of the door using kiln dried C & Btr Douglas fir 2x4 laid flat. This is not the fir studs normally found at Home Depot which are almost green, the kiln dried fir should be around 15% moisture content, almost clear and free of center. You will only need a dozen so the cost will not be prohibitive but will save you headaches later on. Kiln dried fir will not warp as much as green lumber which means the walls will have less potential to warp and scrape the pocket doors.

I would build one wall in place and screw 1 or 2 layers of 1/2" drywall on the inside, then install the track.
The other half of the wall is built on the ground with another two layers of drywall on the inside, then tipped up in place.
Insulate and the wall is ready for outside drywall.
The pocket door can also be installed off center using variations on this theme.

Consider making the pocket door rough framing 60" wide, then you can install two 30" solid core doors. When the doors are closed they will still extend 6" inside the wall for a more effective sound baffle.

Longandstraight

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #14 on: 10 Oct 2019, 11:28 pm »
2x8 plate is possible as the inside of the pocket door wall is closet space.  They recommend a 2" inside the wall but agree with you. I just have to find a style that will look okay with that much inside the door. The lumber co has their own millworks so custom not out of the question.

I really need to do the sleeper floor as the cement is not in the best of shape and I dont want two steps down from the main house. 2x8 with double plywood flooring.
Maybe something else under the Luxury Vinyl Flooring ?( Which will be top of the line)

Its all coming together. thanks for all the info!!

JLM

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #15 on: 11 Oct 2019, 11:48 am »
Again, avoid sliding seals (like barn or pocket doors).  Pocket doors would be especially difficult to maintain. 

Keep in mind that sound isolation goes both ways, keeps neighbors happy and reduces background noise, so you can play quieter and enjoy greater dynamic range.

WGH

Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #16 on: 11 Oct 2019, 04:16 pm »
I think you should embrace the challenge of making a sound proof sliding door. Sliding glass door manufacturers have solved this problem ages ago, you can too.

Check out window/door showrooms to see how the big boys do it and adapt some of their methods. The door bottom will be a weak point. I would start with sweeps on the door bottom, if that is inadequate then you will have to add a threshold with door stops and sweeps on both sides of the sliding doors similar to the jamb top.

Look at European pocket door latches that pull the doors together for a tighter seal when closed, here is one example:
https://www.fsbna.com/us/products/locksets/



Conversation Technology has sliding door weatherstrip for the top and sides.
http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_weatherseals_sliding.html




Regarding the door size, don't overthink it. Get a standard 24" door and glue a 2-1/4" x 2" strip on inside edge, it will never bee seen. A 2-1/4" strip that is thicker than the door serves two purposes: the weatherstrip makes a tighter seal just as the door closes and the brush doesn't scrape the entire door and damage the finish. Don't wing it, make sure whoever does the work makes detailed working drawings you both go over, dimensions are critical along with the ability to replace the weatherstrip if it gets damaged.

The weatherstrip where the two doors meet might be as simple as a couple of WS11 Tubeseals and a good latch so you get some compression.
http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_weatherseals_components.html




RichPark

Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #17 on: 11 Oct 2019, 07:35 pm »
I agree with limiting the use of pocket doors.  When the door is closed you have an empty void with two sheets of 1/2 or 5/8" sheet rock.  The hollow area would not block out low frequencies

Longandstraight

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Re: Iso Trax or Iso Max ? Room suggestions.
« Reply #18 on: 12 Oct 2019, 05:18 pm »
No worries on the pocket doors as they will be built basically in between two complete walls  3 sheets of drywall in front of them and 2 behind them.