Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers

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Daedalus Audio

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Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« on: 1 Oct 2019, 11:15 pm »
I'm thinking about developing a couple of new, smaller speakers. The idea is a two way system based on a 6" driver we can design similar to our 8" driver, and the same Eton tweeter we use in all our systems.  The crossover would maintain the highest level of quality but because of being a two way at a higher frequency would be much less expensive. The cabinets would be solid hardwood of course and I have an idea to make them more rounded and less "boxy".  My goal is to get the efficiency up around 93-96db with decent power handling and bass extension smooth to about 50hz and a gradual roll off below that.

Overall this would be a refined speaker with exceptional imaging and accurate non-fatiguing tonality, plus high sensitivity so it would be well suited for fine tube amps or smaller Class A.  Price in the $5k range

Does anyone think this merits development or is the market just over saturated as it is? :scratch:

abd1

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #1 on: 2 Oct 2019, 12:02 am »
I'm thinking about developing a couple of new, smaller speakers. The idea is a two way system based on a 6" driver we can design similar to our 8" driver, and the same Eton tweeter we use in all our systems.  The crossover would maintain the highest level of quality but because of being a two way at a higher frequency would be much less expensive. The cabinets would be solid hardwood of course and I have an idea to make them more rounded and less "boxy".  My goal is to get the efficiency up around 93-96db with decent power handling and bass extension smooth to about 50hz and a gradual roll off below that.

Overall this would be a refined speaker with exceptional imaging and accurate non-fatiguing tonality, plus high sensitivity so it would be well suited for fine tube amps or smaller Class A.  Price in the $5k range

Does anyone think this merits development or is the market just over saturated as it is? :scratch:

I think they sound awesome, but bass closer to 40hz would be better! I know, tradeoffs..... I think these could present a great option for those who want the Daedalus sound for a more approachable price and a potential gateway drug into the lineup.

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #2 on: 2 Oct 2019, 12:18 am »
I really don't know the condition of the market, or the target price point, but you are right that there are a lot of 6.5" cone-and-dome monitor-sized box speakers out there to choose from, so unless your offering presents something truly unique (which going for a high efficiency like that assuming you can also hit 50 Hz extension sounds kind of out there, in a sea of 85-ish efficient 4-ohm load speakers) you are right in thinking you're entering a very full market.

Considering your target specs, any reason not to just use the eton dome with your existing 4.5" midrange as your two-way?  Just eyeballing it, couldn't that get you in to your ballpark specs, save for that you really would be building more of a mini-monitor?  In the other direction, is there some reason the eton dome and the 8" woofer wouldn't work together without the 4.5" mid to make a bigger 2-way monitor?  Do you think you can make a 6" driver that can meet or beat what you're getting out of the 4.5" driver currently being used?  If that is the case, I could see a long-term trickle up/down that might make the project worthwhile even if it doesn't sell huge in that you could make new/updated models of the 3-ways as well, using the new 6" driver.  There is, from a business perspective in the speaker-building business, something to be said about having as many of your drivers in-house as possible in regards to long-term production capability and support (you aren't at the mercy of a driver being discontinued and the supply running dry).

Sorry for not offering a straightforward answer, but just some thoughts that came to mind after reading your idea.

Jon 

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #3 on: 2 Oct 2019, 12:20 am »
I think they sound awesome, but bass closer to 40hz would be better! I know, tradeoffs..... I think these could present a great option for those who want the Daedalus sound for a more approachable price and a potential gateway drug into the lineup.

The problem with trying to go flat much below 50hz is that you lose a LOT of sensitivity and speed. Too many people do that already.
Basically most of the music is above 50hz, when you go to a club there is little below that, (kick drum etc is 50-80hz). Many systems artificially boost the 50-80hz range to give the "illusion" of deep bass but it ends up not being accurate or really musical.

Still, this is a big problem, how to get decent bass without sacrificing speed and efficiency? I'm trying to keep my expectations low (50hz) but even at that I'm sure I can get a gradual rolloff so that it is still solid in the 30's. If people really need to have the deep bass and are fine with sacrificing other qualities then I won't even go there....

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #4 on: 2 Oct 2019, 12:25 am »
I really don't know the condition of the market, or the target price point, but you are right that there are a lot of 6.5" cone-and-dome monitor-sized box speakers out there to choose from, so unless your offering presents something truly unique (which going for a high efficiency like that assuming you can also hit 50 Hz extension sounds kind of out there, in a sea of 85-ish efficient 4-ohm load speakers) you are right in thinking you're entering a very full market.

Considering your target specs, any reason not to just use the eton dome with your existing 4.5" midrange as your two-way?  Just eyeballing it, couldn't that get you in to your ballpark specs, save for that you really would be building more of a mini-monitor?  In the other direction, is there some reason the eton dome and the 8" woofer wouldn't work together without the 4.5" mid to make a bigger 2-way monitor?  Do you think you can make a 6" driver that can meet or beat what you're getting out of the 4.5" driver currently being used?  If that is the case, I could see a long-term trickle up/down that might make the project worthwhile even if it doesn't sell huge in that you could make new/updated models of the 3-ways as well, using the new 6" driver.  There is, from a business perspective in the speaker-building business, something to be said about having as many of your drivers in-house as possible in regards to long-term production capability and support (you aren't at the mercy of a driver being discontinued and the supply running dry).

Sorry for not offering a straightforward answer, but just some thoughts that came to mind after reading your idea.

Jon
Thanks Jon!  All good points and ideas.  btw I have looked at using my mid/tweeter combination as a small two way and did not feel it could really be worthwhile. The 8" is too large. One of the issues I have with many two-way systems is that they use to large of a woofer to go too high and there end up being all kinds of phase issues.
I think I could make a great small system but the market may just be too saturated.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #5 on: 2 Oct 2019, 12:41 am »
It would be nice if you offer competition to Klipsch and Tekton, you will need flat 8 ohms impedance, 100dB sensitivity and musical 40Hz bass(bass reflex floor standing) to a tube amp friendly, Klipsch price range are lower though.

8'' coaxial driver could be a positive differential and rare in the market today.


Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #6 on: 2 Oct 2019, 12:48 am »
Hey, Lou!

I think from a performance perspective (the kind of thing that would parade around on a spec sheet) the niche would be high efficiency (if you could hit 96db and still get 50Hz out of a monitor-sized box) and a flat 8-ohm load (easy to drive with just about anything).  I guess at a glance I really just worry about trying to make something like that, that really stands out at that price point considering all the other options on the market.

It reminds me of the dilemma of the niche companies in the high-end medieval weapons (think swords) market/manufacturing.  "Common sense" says that a dagger should cost less than a short-sword, which should cost less than a longsword.  Problem is that the materials cost in all the above is negligibly different; the labor costs and production costs are basically the same.  This means that for a company that sells longswords at $1000 each, although they can easily make a great dagger, no one would want to pay the $1000 they need to charge for one to make it financially worth making them (unless the profit line is irrelevant and it really gets done as a labor-of-love project).  In your case, a few extra board feet of lumber probably isn't much money in the big picture, but it will take just as much time, attention, and care to make a Daedalus-quality cabinet for a small monitor as it does to make say a Muse.

Unless, of course, again you think that your 6" driver could meet or beat your current 4.5".  If that is the case - and that 6" driver would then be trickled up the whole line - considering the prices many high-end audiophiles are willing to pay for even sometimes tiny improvements in performance (and the exponential premium thus you are able to charge for that improvement), it could be worth developing the driver mainly as a way to raise the top end of your product line's performance bar up a notch and end up sort of "trickling down" a 2-way that could become a gateway in to Daedalus, although again at the proposed price point, you aren't that far off of a Muse, and a 6" 2-way on a stand takes up a negligibly different amount of floor space as a cabinet for a 8" floorstander...

Jon

mresseguie

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #7 on: 2 Oct 2019, 02:26 am »
Hi, Lou.

Have you considered taking the Pan design and using a smaller and/or less expensive cabinet rather than pursuing a two-way design? An example is offer a Baltic Birch cabinet.

Alan’s Pans are great sounding speakers. If you could reduce cabinet costs, that design might just satisfy.

Just a thought.

Michael

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #8 on: 2 Oct 2019, 11:55 am »
A couple of thoughts for Lou:

Like the idea of venturing into compact high efficiency 2-way designs.  We've known for decades that the best in-room location to generate bass is opposite of that to generate mids/highs.  And with the recent research done by Floyd Toole, we know that the ideal in-room bass solution is to use multiple subs located near the corners.  Together that makes the concept of full range floor standing speakers seem rather ancient and their owners trophy collectors.

As frequencies below ~80 Hz don't affect imaging and the Schroeder frequency (where sound proposition changes from waves to rays) is roughly 120 - 200 Hz (room dependent) there is little need to even reach 50 Hz as you propose.  OTOH many small woofers can't seem to produce mid/bass body.  Wondering what woofers you're looking at as that seems to be the crux of design.  On paper the $995/pair Decware DM945 comes to mind as a high efficiency affordable 2-way monitor (but too big for a desktop).

From a modern marketing perspective (thinking of younger, uninitiated consumers - the future of audio) hope the speaker you have in mind is compact enough to comfortably fit on a desktop and for your sake provides a strong taste of Daedalus.  Of course WAF dictate speakers that don't dominate a room or demand precise placement to sound good.  And a $5000 price tag would be quite daunting if entry level sales are desired. 

gab

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #9 on: 2 Oct 2019, 04:28 pm »

Does anyone think this merits development or is the market just over saturated as it is? :scratch:

at that $5K price level, I'd say over saturated.

gab

ketcham

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #10 on: 2 Oct 2019, 05:05 pm »
Lou,

I would agree with you.  Do not sacrifice anything for more bass extension.  Perhaps I am unique.  Mids and high range are where the emotion always as been for me. 

Less boxy speaker design and a more modern look have its own benefits.  Aesthetics goes a long way with many of our spouses. 

5K for a quality product with the workmanship, materials, and execution.  This is more than reasonable for pricing.  Compared to what 5K buys you today.  This will be affordable to the next generation of audiophiles who themselves will most likely own small properties, small spaces, low overhead costs.  Quality, functionality, performance and portability will be key.  I think you will hit the marks on this.

Efficiency is important as I see a trend toward tube gear.  Daedalus impedance curve is matched by few other manufacturers. 

Again my emphasis - do not sacrifice for the bass extension. 




pawsman

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #11 on: 2 Oct 2019, 05:07 pm »
Offer an optional, purpose designed, matching Subwoofer(s) for the 6" 2-way compact-

pawsman

Tyson

Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #12 on: 2 Oct 2019, 05:08 pm »
I've heard great high efficiency 2 way speakers, it was an awesome experience.  I would NOT sacrifice the speed, detail, impact and EMOTION that true high efficiency brings to the table.  If people want more bass, a sub in the corner, or a pair near each speaker will fill in the bottom nicely.  I hear Daedalus makes some nice matching subs, :thumb:

woodsyi

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #13 on: 2 Oct 2019, 06:32 pm »
I agree with Tyson.  50Hz and below can be filled with sub(s) and you can DSP to your heart's content to match the roll off characteristic of the woofers.  ADC/DAC loop doesn't seem to affect the "musicality" at frequencies below 80Hz.  I DSP my sub signals going into subwoofer amps but not the the mains. 

aldcoll

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #14 on: 2 Oct 2019, 07:00 pm »
One could only hope a sub with that new 10 inch driver would be something.   

As I have been do lucky to have both 8 and 10 inch driver speakers at the same time.  There is just something magical there.

And now you know whats on my wish list.

Alan

WGH

Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #15 on: 2 Oct 2019, 08:07 pm »
I would make a list of 93-96db speakers in that price range, there are a lot of 2-way speakers but I can't think of many that are very efficient. A friend recently got a pair of Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers but I haven't heard them yet. Previously, when listening to efficient speakers at friends homes and at RMAF, the initial excitement with the coherence of a full range driver passes quickly and then my mind can't get past the cupped hands coloration. A speaker with exceptional imaging and accurate non-fatiguing tonality could be a viable contender.

Would these speakers be floorstanding or monitors? A pair of Sonus Faber Ex3ma cost $41,300, are not very efficient but are beautiful. Maybe $5000 is too low a price? I guess you will find out after making amazing pine prototype mock up designs.

mresseguie

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #16 on: 2 Oct 2019, 10:50 pm »
One could only hope a sub with that new 10 inch driver would be something.   

As I have been do lucky to have both 8 and 10 inch driver speakers at the same time.  There is just something magical there.

And now you know whats on my wish list.

Alan

Alan,

Wanna buy my Apollos so I can buy a pair of Apollo 11s?  :thumb:

Tyson

Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #17 on: 2 Oct 2019, 11:28 pm »
The general rule is:

Small size
High efficiency
Deep bass

Pick 2!  :lol:

aldcoll

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Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #18 on: 2 Oct 2019, 11:52 pm »
Alan,

Wanna buy my Apollos so I can buy a pair of Apollo 11s?  :thumb:
Short answer is yes.  Might need to rent your house soon after.

A

Early B.

Re: Idea for new line in Daedalus speakers
« Reply #19 on: 3 Oct 2019, 12:01 am »
Daedalus has been successful in the past without polling AC members. Frankly, we don't have a clue.

With that being said and since you asked for opinions, here's mine -- Daedalus is at the top of my wish list of speakers to buy & try, but they're cost prohibitive. An entry level monitor in your lineup would be great, but at $5,000, it's way too pricey, IMO [NOTE: I paid about $2,500 for my current monitors].  Many high end companies of all kinds have entry level products that are designed to entice new customers who aren't able or willing (at least initially) to dive straight into their higher end models. Whet their appetite and leave them drooling for more.