[Adam_Reiter]

Well said Mikey.  That was a PERFECT post and makes all the sense in the world.  

[cab]

Adam wrote:

Cab, you might also want to consider that YOU yourself never once CALLED or EMAILED Mark or AV123 about your concerns (At least you havent eluded to the fact).

Adam, I have indeed had numerous correspondances over the years with Perpetual Technologies. My P-3 was sent in 2~3 times for repair, the P-1 sent in once. I have also expressed my dissatisfaction on more than one occasion via email, and was offered several years ago a free SOCS.

In any case, this all started, if you go back and read the thread, in response to Mr. DeWulf's comments about a new correction product (R-DES) and his comments (erroneous as it turns out) that the software wasn't ready. I alerted people to a seemingly identical situation with the P-1 and that it has been ongoing for 5 years. I did not jump in here demanding a refund. I have said that a recall and refund would be the right thing to do in light of the continuing delays and unfulfilled promises.

If you look at the early marketing on this product, it makes no mention of the room and speaker correction being an "option". It was sold as a "digital correction engine". Upsampling and interpolation are not "correction".

Someone wrote:

- You purchased the the P-1a, one that came with added value to your system out of the box, and that came with the promise that added functionality would be forthcoming (very soon).

Yes.

- That added functionality would come at an additional cost (optionally)

Wasn't stated originally as I recall that there would be an additional cost.

- You have never paid for that added functionality

Well, I believe I have paid for that functionality as I would never have paid $1000 for a device that added only interpolation to my system. I paid that because I was told that the unit had the functionality already-it was a simply a short wait for the software.

- The added functionality is being offered way late

The complete software to perform room and speaker correction, which was what the unit was sold to do, has yet to be offered, period.

If you and others want to take the position that the unit did do something, so it was worth something, I can't argue with that. But it didn't, and doesn't, do what was promised, and these promises are what people paid a large sum of money for. What is an interpolator worth? Not $1000. Would I or others bought it simply as that? I wouldn't have. What is a reasonable remedy? We all have our own opinions; as a purchaser who has been waiting 4 years and listened to an unending stream of broken promises, perhaps my opinion will be different from yours.

MLS wrote:

I do find it interesting that you seemingly are not willing to reply to several points (Interpolation being one of these) and offers I have made with respect to this... Your choice... but your decision and "line" you've taken has also been noted in these exchanges... I'm not without understanding... I am keen to please and wonder why you have said some of the things you've said about me... Would make anyone wonder...

I am not sure what I haven't replied to...I have said that it was advertised as a "digital correction engine" that would do room and speaker correction. It doesn't. Upsampling and interpolation are not "correction".

It was originally called a "digital correction engine", but I see this terminology has been dropped. I would also like to mention that of the three things the P-1 DOES do-upsampling, interpolation, and jitter reduction- the P-3 does two of them -upsampling and jitter reduction. So for people such as myself who bought both units, the P-1 adds only interpolation. How many people would have bought these for $1000 after buying the P-3 if they knew 5 years out all it would still be doing was interpolation?

I said that you have made repeated promises from the get-go over a 5 year span and have yet to deliver. I said that in my opinion you are a poor businessman and that you lacked credibilty. I am surprised to read that you "wonder why I would have said some of these things...would make anyone wonder". Does anyone think that selling a product based on claims that 5 years down the road have yet to be met isn't poor business practice? And that all the promises unkept are not a reasonable basis to question someone's credibility? What's to wonder about?
 

MLS wrote:

Lets see how this plays out... My guess is if I DO EXACTLY as you say you will be happy... If I chose another tact I'll be seeing you here again... Just my opinion... but your careful choice of wording to my reply makes it very clear and well understood to me...

Well, one doesn't make up for broken promises with more promises, if he is sincere. I didn't make my comments here expecting anything from you, and I don't expect anything now. I have suggested that you offer refunds as a sincere gesture for the ludicrous 5 year wait and stream of broken promises. If your customers are as satisfied with the P-1 as simply as an interpolater as you make out, I am sure you could swing a refund of some sort without great financial difficulty for the few people like myself who are not; in view of the fact that one's word and credibility in the business world is one's most valuable asset, it would be a small cost to pay.

[mlschifter]

Adam wrote:
Well, one doesn't make up for broken promises with more promises, if he is sincere. I didn't make my comments here expecting anything from you, and I don't expect anything now. I have suggested that you offer refunds as a sincere gesture for the ludicrous 5 year wait and stream of broken promises. If your customers are as satisfied with the P-1 as simply as an interpolater as you make out, I am sure you could swing a refund of some sort without great financial difficulty for the few people like ...

For the sake of airing this out here...

We do not have you in our warranty card que...

We do not have you on ANY update list for SOCS/ROCS/ or 192 upsampling...

You are patently wrong about your assumptivesd with respect to "what the P-1A does" and what the P-3A is or will do in the context of using the two together...

We cannot find a record of selling you this product (although there is one archive Suzanne cannot get to right now)...

I will not in any way be bullied by your posts here (or your e-mail to me) I want to be in possession of all of the facts and then make a decision that works for both of us...

I've read your posts cab... I've read them carefully as have others... I do not say what I'm saying here lightly or with anything less than complete RESPECT... Give me an opportunity to get to all the facts and lets find some common ground...

IF your only solution is a FULL and COMPLETE refund here and now then I can tell you (also here and now) that I will NOT be offering you this... I am happy to provide numerous compromises (including the potential of a refund of some sorts) to help this matter along... but without even knowing IF you bought this product from us (and when, etc.) than I'm not going to step one step further forward... You pop off (without any modicum of truth attached) that I do not deliver on any of my promises... You denegrate me and my reputation for all to bear witness to... and THEN after 5 years start making demands... Good for you... as I said in the e-mail "that dog don't hunt here"...

Respectfully... but starting to find myself wondering why...

mls

[Craig Chase]

Cab - You said you have owned the products for 4 years, and that there was NO mention made in EARLY marketing that the speaker and room correction software packages were OPTIONS for which there would be an additional CHARGE ...

I am looking at a thread from January 30, 2000 which states the OPTION of purchasing the speaker software for $399 and the OPTION of purchasing the Room correction software for $699 will occur "soon" ...

This was FIVE years ago, a full year before you purchased the product. Should you be disappointed ? Sure ... Frustrated ? Possibly.

As it was VERY clear this was a future product WITH an extra charge, FACTUALLY, you got EXACTLY what you paid for ... no more nor less.

[DRL]

I had to join just to post in this thread.  It's happened again.

Someone goes after Mark Schifter and as the dust starts to settle, I end up having more respect for him and more interest in his products than I did before.

Now for people like 'cab' on the other hand...

[Adam_Reiter]

Cab - You said you have owned the products for 4 years, and that there was NO mention made in EARLY marketing that the speaker and room correction software packages were OPTIONS for which there would be an additional CHARGE ...

I am looking at a thread from January 30, 2000 which states the OPTION of purchasing the speaker software for $399 and the OPTION of purchasing the Room correction software for $699 will occur "soon" ...

This was FIVE years ago, a full year before you purchased the product. Sho ...

Gotta love it.  Well done, Craig.

[cab]

Believe me, I own both units and will be sending you the serial numbers. Also, I communicated in the past with Greg, Walter, and someone else as I recall over the 4 years, on numerous occasions relating to return of the units for repair (3 times). My old email address was kuribo@thn.ne.jp. Ask them to check their email archives. I can only wonder as to why you aren't finding any reference to my ownership...

My assumptions on what the P-1 and P-3 do is based on the literature that came with them and what I have read on your web site. The P-1 is said to upsample, interpolate, and reduce jitter. The P-3 is a D/A converter that upsamples and reduces jitter. If this is incorrect, please correct me.

I am not trying to bully you at all...I apologize if you feel bullied. You are not the victim here.

"You pop off (without any modicum of truth attached) that I do not deliver on any of my promises... You denegrate me and my reputation for all to bear witness to... and THEN after 5 years start making demands"

Let's be straight here: you haven't delivered to date on any of your promises as it relates to the release of software for SOCS and RCS. That is what I referred to, and I stick by it. I own a P-1 and a P-3 and I do not have SOCS or RCS. They are not available now, nor have they been since I purchased them 4 years ago. That is the 100% truth.

While I have indeed questioned your business savvy and credibility, I have said nothing about your reputation. If you find that your reputation suffers due to this discussion because I have expressed my dissatisfaction over a product that doesn't do what it was advertised to do, and the 5 years of broken promises, then I can only say that you have no one to blame but yourself.

I didn't come here making demands. I simply alerted people to the P-1 situation and gave my opinion about this sort of business practice. YOU asked what it would take to make things right, so I have told you. What you do is up to you. I said I have no expectations.

I mean you no ill will. But I speak for many when I say that I feel I was misled when I bought the P-1 and that I find it extremely difficult to believe you after having been told the same thing time and again for the past 4~5 years. And I feel that I have every right to let people know about this situation. I am sorry if that upsets you, but I have the feeling that you would feel the same way if the shoe was on the other foot.
[/quote]

[Craig Chase]

If you visit AV123's forum, you will find a link to the thread to which I am referring ... it was quite clear this product was going to have an option for these upgrades at a future date.

Personally, I understand your not caring that the individual who was developing the software had some personal tragedies, that is HIS problem, not yours. Some people are understanding in situations like these, but most are not.

I also understand why you are frustrated that the product has yet to reach the market.

But to suggest there was going to be a FREE upgrade is just not true. Look it up...

[arthurs]

How do you end your initial post with "His word is worthless...." as a blanket public statement and then claim to mean the man no ill will?  There are some worthless words alright....

[Mikeyb]

Cab said: "While I have indeed questioned your business savvy and credibility, I have said nothing about your reputation."

You have said PLENTY about your thoughts of his reputation.  And you have proved more about yourself than anyone else in doing so.

[cab]

I retracted the "word is worthless comment" earlier in the thread, and I have also apologized to MLS for this comment. 5 years of frustration and waiting is my only excuse.

I do believe that after 5 years of promises unkept, I have a legitimate reason for doubting his credibility.

And I never said that I bought the product assuming that SOCS and RCS would be free. I simply said that early reports made no mention that it would cost extra or that users would have to rent measurement equipment, etc. That all came out, along with tentative costs and details, after the product went to market. Fact is, we still don't know the exact costs, configurations, etc...

[Adam_Reiter]

And I never said that I bought the product assuming that SOCS and RCS would be free. I simply said that early reports made no mention that it would cost extra or that users would have to rent measurement equipment, etc. Tha ...

if you follow this link from JAN 2000, it breaks down the EXTRA cost for the SOCS upgrades.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/7ec13c283ea8babe/7629b751cb7cbeb8?tvc=1&q=mark+schifter& _done=/groups?q=mark+schifter&start=10%2
6&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&scrollSave=&&d#7629b751cb7cbeb8">
Early Advertisment for P1a

I'd say that was a pretty early report.

[Craig Chase]

Perhaps "worthless" was a bit strong....How about "devoid of credibility"??

I believe I speak for more than a few unhappy P-1 purchasers who bought on the promises and hype and have seen nothing but talk, excuses, delays, and more talk. The product was marketed on its ability to do all sorts of DSP, and then it turns out that it is 99% vaporware. The original price of the product was justified on the basis that soon, very soon, room correction and speaker correction would transform the listening experien ...

But this post belies your current words, Cab.

[Mikeyb]

Cab, you retracted the "his word is worthless" comment, but then you follow that up, in the same sentence, with "how about devoid of credibility"?  How is this different?

We all UNDERSTAND that you are frustrated.  I think most can forgive a brief lashing out in the heat of venting, after having apologized and admitting you're wrong.  BUT, you can't then go out and make comments like you have made regarding the man or his businesses based on one experience where all the facts are unknown, and where even your own recollection of the facts is fuzzy at best.  At least you can't do that and come off as credible yourself.

If Mark S. and Co. delibrately hid the fact that SOCS, etc. would not be out for X number of years at the time you purchased your P-1a, then yes, his credibility would indeed be derserving of questioning and criticism, if not an investigation for fraud.  Is this what you believe?  I don't think you believe that for a second.

[mlschifter]

Believe me, I own both units and will be sending you the serial numbers. Also, I communicated in the past with Greg, Walter, and someone else as I recall over the 4 years, on numerous occasions relating to return of the units for repair (3 times). My old email address was kuribo@thn.ne.jp. Ask them to check their email archives. I can only wonder as to why you aren't finding any reference to my ownership...

My assumptions on what the P-1 and P-3 do is based on the literature that came with them and what  ...

Your feeling are well understood cab... Please know that...

You DO fail to realize that by stating what you said... coupled to the way in which you state it... People could draw the wrong conclusion...

You also DO very defintely demand a refund... No matter how I try to read into what you "might mean"... you are demanding this... I'm trying to comply...

We will look at the archives (of course)... but I will also say nothing more until I understand where you brough the product (from us or otherwise) and look at your documentation...

Respectfully...

mls

[mlschifter]

I retracted the "word is worthless comment" earlier in the thread, and I have also apologized to MLS for this comment. 5 years of frustration and waiting is my only excuse.

I do believe that after 5 years of promises unkept, I have a legitimate reason for doubting his credibility.

And I never said that I bought the product assuming that SOCS and RCS would be free. I simply said that early reports made no mention that it would cost extra or that users would have to rent measurement equipment, etc. Tha ...

This is factually incorrect...

I'm sorry... but it is...

Regards...

mls

[warnerwh]

Well Mark while you're here the main reason I started this thread was to learn about your new DSP product. How about some information please?  I'd be very interested for 400 bucks as I suspect numerous people would assuming it's a very transparent piece.  Also I appreciate and respect your willingness to resolve a problem on a public forum.

[mlschifter]

Well Mark while you're here the main reason I started this thread was to learn about your new DSP product. How about some information please?  I'd be very interested for 400 bucks as I suspect numerous people would assuming it's a very transparent piece.  Also I appreciate and respect your willingness to resolve a problem on a public forum.

Cool...

I also wish to point out that cab does indeed have a legit gripe with our very late delivery... We have been humbled by this for sure... The fact that we have soft launched now is nice... (this means aa quiet launch) but we ARE (after all) Four years late...  

O.K. --- the R-DES product is a lovely PC-based 4 band parametric eq system for your subwoofer to room interface... All (100%) DSP controlled and really easy to use... The early reports have been sensational... (thank heavens for this)... The inventor... David Tremblay... is something special... Lovely GUI and you can save literally 1000's of custom curves on your (Windows-based) PC and the box itself can store several selectable ones... Just pure fun... Curves load in less than 200mS...

I'll try to post and image here of the GUI (mods... if this is not allowed, please delete)...

Thanks so much for asking...

All the best...

mls

RDESfinal.jpg

[JohnR]

I'll try to post and image here of the GUI (mods... if this is not allowed, please delete)...

This is good but I suspect that you may as well start another thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=54">here

[mlschifter]

I'll try to post and image here of the GUI (mods... if this is not allowed, please delete)...

This is good but I suspect that you may as well start another thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=54">here

You are of course correct...

My apologies... I need to hang here more...  

I also need to know how to post a jpg...  

I'm not always the sharpest tool in the shed at times...

All the best...

mls