Cost-no-object desktop use?

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Groundzero

Cost-no-object desktop use?
« on: 3 Aug 2019, 10:33 pm »
I've been enjoying my LGK 1.0 kit on my computer for a couple months now but am getting the itch for a little more of everything. I've also been wanting to get more into measuring and the design aspect which has brought me to an idea that doesn't seem to be expressly addressed (at least that I can find). Do 2.0 speakers exist that are specifically designed for music listening on a desk?

I've been reading and watching a million reviews of all sorts of speakers, from powered bookshelves, to passives, to HT setups, and it all seems to be a bit of a guessing game. Some bookshelves do great near-field, others not so much. Powered pairs come with a little more certainty since the dac/amp don't come into play,but those also tend to be lower end. Some are way too big for desktop use. Others are rear-ported which makes for a problem with a typical desk being right up against a wall. The logical solution is studio monitors which are in general meant for desk use, but they also tend to be flat and neutral for production use, at least according to the reviews, I've never owned a pair of studio monitors.

I love every pair of GR speakers I've built from the A/V-O, A/V-2, LGK, and V2. My thought process was to start with something like the N2X, but I wondered if there was any way to improve on them for the specific use case. I am wanting to stick to 2.0 because in my experience a sub sounds a bit off by being under the desk, and I want to keep the setup contained on the desk. This is my first time diving into more of the science of it, so I'm curious if there was any way to optimize the tweeter for near-field, to minimize desk reflections, to extend bass response (passive radiator?).

Before getting too deep into this I was wanting to see if Danny or anyone else has had experience, lessons learned, or things to avoid in this realm. A couple thoughts I had were that off-axis isn't super important since seating position at a desk is a very stationary and repeatable listening position. Also having a taller, thinner box would be ideal since my desk has 2 computer screens and real estate is at a premium. Most setups I've seen have bookshelves on a stand anyway to raise the height and angle them upwards, so why not make them tall enough from the beginning.

Mostly I'm just trying to brainstorm and gain some direction before anything else. Thank you!

HAL

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Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #1 on: 4 Aug 2019, 12:35 am »
Have you seen this thread from Danny about the studio monitors?

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163940.0

Peter J

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Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #2 on: 4 Aug 2019, 12:37 am »
Assuming Danny gets more LGKs and also assuming you're willing to have limited bass, this would be an interesting project. LGK 2.0 perhaps having a rear firing tweeter.

After these were done, I ended up installing a friction mount tweeter from Parts Express which brightened top a smidgen. Curtains don't help.


Captainhemo

Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #3 on: 4 Aug 2019, 05:26 am »
+1   with HAl.  Those  cas are  18"  tall   so  you have the tweeters up a bit higher  like  you  want.  With the open top   and  sealed  bottom,  you  get the  best of both  worlds in a   decent  sized monitor  (18x8.5x12"  )  ..... Been a while, wold have to check the  12"  depth to confirm but  I think that is  correct.
If  you need more  bass,  throw in a   sealed Sw12 04FR  ,  you  should be able to dial it in  seamlessly...

I  think  these  might   be your  best  bet,  you're  going to the  Neo 3 in basically  an Ob onfigureation   in a  wave guide and the     M165 NQ which is a  step up,  a conssiderable step up, in the mid range  performance
jay

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #4 on: 4 Aug 2019, 06:00 am »
I am wanting to stick to 2.0 because in my experience a sub sounds a bit off by being under the desk, and I want to keep the setup contained on the desk.

In this case, I have to go -1 from HAL and Jay's suggestion.  Although the linked monitor may be a great speaker, it is clearly designed to have a subwoofer pick up where the M165NQ doesn't reach, which I'd think is pretty high in frequency for most people if intended to be used strictly for a 2.0 setup.  This is actually why I've wondered on occasion if there might be a market for Danny to have a true replacement/upgrade for the M165 and or the M165X made with all the materials goodness that got upgraded for the M165NQ but with the functional parameters of the M165 and M165X, still able to make reasonable bass in a reasonable sized box, which may not really be a fair thing to ask of the M165NQ as it was purpose built as a midrange driver for OB, not a mid-woofer for a box.

Just my $.02 for what little that's worth.  Out of what Danny's got out there right now, the N1X is probably the next step up to still be a desktop 2.0 speaker (neo tweeter, small cabinet, decent low end extension, but not very efficient which may matter less as you're sitting a meter or less from the front baffle).

Captainhemo

Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #5 on: 4 Aug 2019, 07:30 am »
Well,    the  N1X is a ported  design  and  you'd  want it   a min of  12" off the  wall,   ideally more  I'd  say.     It is a  bit smaller in size,  .25"  less per  side (IIRc 8" w vs 8.5"  wide))
With it's ported  design,   it's  -3db point of the N1X is  around  55 hz.... would hae to look it up  but  I'm betting  the   M165 NQ in a sealed cab is going to be similar but,  I think the  midrange performance of the  NQ is going  to be a   pretty decent  step up.   
Plus,  the Neo3 in  Ob or  basically OB configuration is a different animal  vs the  closed back version.  You  also get the additional height of the   NQ studio monitor design, although,  you could  probably  add a bit more height/volume to the N1X  cab  and possibly  extend the  bass response  slightly  ....  danny  could  obviously  advise better  on  this

In either case,  crossing to a sub if needed inthe   40-50hz range  should not be  an  issue to make it   seamless

jay

Danny Richie

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Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #6 on: 4 Aug 2019, 01:34 pm »
What Jay said pretty well nailed it.

That Studio Monitor is one of the best sounding stand mounted or console mounted speakers that I have heard.

If you have space for them then you'll love them.


Well,    the  N1X is a ported  design  and  you'd  want it   a min of  12" off the  wall,   ideally more  I'd  say.     It is a  bit smaller in size,  .25"  less per  side (IIRc 8" w vs 8.5"  wide))
With it's ported  design,   it's  -3db point of the N1X is  around  55 hz.... would hae to look it up  but  I'm betting  the   M165 NQ in a sealed cab is going to be similar but,  I think the  midrange performance of the  NQ is going  to be a   pretty decent  step up.   
Plus,  the Neo3 in  Ob or  basically OB configuration is a different animal  vs the  closed back version.  You  also get the additional height of the   NQ studio monitor design, although,  you could  probably  add a bit more height/volume to the N1X  cab  and possibly  extend the  bass response  slightly  ....  danny  could  obviously  advise better  on  this

In either case,  crossing to a sub if needed inthe   40-50hz range  should not be  an  issue to make it   seamless

jay

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #7 on: 4 Aug 2019, 01:53 pm »
I thought my post might draw out this kind of rebuttal.  :lol:

Without going further around in a circle debating the two designs weighing the cons of each or the OP's subjective thoughts on the matter, this:

In either case,  crossing to a sub if needed in the   40-50hz range  should not be  an  issue to make it   seamless

No matter how much it, "should not be an issue to make it seamless," is not this:

I am wanting to stick to 2.0 because...I want to keep the setup contained on the desk.

For the OP mentioning a taller thinner box being a possibility or preferable might open an opportunity somewhere here.  On something like the N1X, how about flipping the port to the front side of the box?  On the studio monitor, how big would the box get if one front ported the 165NQ, and would (could?) it then reach down low enough to get the subwoofer out of the discussion?  If the AV-2 plays low enough for the OP's purposes, maybe none of this is an issue and the studio monitor is good to go for this use case as-is?

Groundzero

Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #8 on: 4 Aug 2019, 02:08 pm »
I appreciate the responses so far. I think the tall LGK kit is out because I am definitely looking for more low end. Danny's new studio monitor that HAL linked is interesting, but my main question there is how do they do near field and with a wall behind them? The picture in that thread has them in a listening room with proper spacing. I'm not against trying those sealed and tweaking them as needed either. I've been thinking that maybe some kind of active DSP and room EQ would be beneficial in this situation. That might be sacrilege to some, but I'd rather have the best listening in this situation, rather than the purest.

Has anyone tried adding a second woofer or passive radiator to something like the N2X? I'm still learning the science behind it all, but have seen other designs implement them for some added low end. Mainly I don't know how this factors into distance from the wall, or off the desk, or with computer screens between them. Here's some pics of what I'm talking about:
Buchardt S400 have an oval passive radiator. Seems like an efficient way to get a larger driver without adding cabinet width, albeit these are huge.


Random speakers from google images with a second driver, unknown if passive or not. This would give height to the tweeter and some more low end, but I don't know the effect of having it right next to the desk surface. Again these are kinda huge. Just an idea.


Focal Shape 40s have side radiators which seems again like a possibility, but I'm unsure of the negative effects. Downward facing could be another idea, with a taller cabinet that doesn't sit directly on the desk?


I'm not against starting with something like Danny's new studio monitors and measuring/tweaking/modifying as needed, I just don't want to start off on the wrong foot.


mlundy57

Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #9 on: 4 Aug 2019, 04:33 pm »
Something to consider: just because you have have had trouble integrating a sub doesn't mean it has to be that way. I have the LGK 1.0s on my desk with a servo controlled sub underneath and the integration is seamless. It just sounds like the LGKs play all the way down. As an example, when I hooked up a new unbroken-in pair of X-LS Encores to check out, I was amazed at how good the bass was. Then I realized I had forgotten to turn the sub off. 

If you don't want the width of a 12" servo sub under your desk you could go with Rythmik's F8. While it doesn't play as low as the 12, it's 4" narrower. On the other hand, since it has two drivers it is taller. At 20" tall it might not fit under your desk but could fit beside the desk or in a corner. Then again, the 12" sub doesn't have to be under the desk either.

When I tried larger speakers like the N1X and X-LS Encore on my desk I was never satisfied. Sitting that close to them, they didn't image near as well as the LGKs. Also, they took up a lot of real estate on my desk. Way more than I was willing to give up.

Another option that could get you everything you are looking for and still have a desk to work on would be to stand mount larger speakers in front of your desk, provided your office is large enough.

Mike

Danny Richie

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Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #10 on: 4 Aug 2019, 05:03 pm »
I appreciate the responses so far. I think the tall LGK kit is out because I am definitely looking for more low end. Danny's new studio monitor that HAL linked is interesting, but my main question there is how do they do near field and with a wall behind them?

They were designed to be used in the nearfield. They are studio monitors. And that is whey they are a sealed box design.

Groundzero

Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #11 on: 4 Aug 2019, 05:42 pm »
They were designed to be used in the nearfield. They are studio monitors. And that is whey they are a sealed box design.

Thanks for the reply Danny, I couldn't tell from the other thread that they were sealed. Do these go reasonably low?

Danny Richie

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Re: Cost-no-object desktop use?
« Reply #12 on: 4 Aug 2019, 08:33 pm »
Thanks for the reply Danny, I couldn't tell from the other thread that they were sealed. Do these go reasonably low?

Mid 60's or so... in room, but the roll off will be more gradual.