M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction

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AmpDesigner333

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #60 on: 4 Aug 2019, 07:01 pm »
Clayton,

You say “.... a cool new wideband, large dome unit which operates from 500Hz to 40kHz that is direct wired to the input terminals - no crossover or any components in its signal path!”

Is the tweeter capacitive?  Is there a cap built in?  If neither, how does it handle the bass frequencies without damage?

-Tommy O

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #61 on: 14 Aug 2019, 12:06 am »
Reading the information posted on the new speakers it appears that the 15 inch woofer on the M5 is the same as the 15 inch woofer as the X3.  At least they have the same name "Spatial ST15-8".  Are they basically the same woofer other then one passive and one setup active?

Spatial Audio

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #62 on: 14 Aug 2019, 01:40 am »
Clayton,

You say “.... a cool new wideband, large dome unit which operates from 500Hz to 40kHz that is direct wired to the input terminals - no crossover or any components in its signal path!”

Is the tweeter capacitive?  Is there a cap built in?  If neither, how does it handle the bass frequencies without damage?

-Tommy O

Its like a normal dome tweeter with substantially beefed up features like a long throw suspension, very large heat sink and Ferrofluid thermal coupling. We have done in-depth reliability testing to make sure the device is of a sufficiently robust design to run without a high pass network. For good measure, on Sunday, I ran the M5 at a 90dB 1M average level with a drum/cymbal track with heavy dynamics. I ran the test for about 3 hours straight without distress. The heatsink temperature was close to ambient - so it definitely works well.

Snowpuppy- Yes, the 15 inch ST15 woofer was developed during the X3 development program. Same woofer.

Clayton

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #63 on: 14 Aug 2019, 02:53 am »
Very interesting.  Glad my M3 Sapphires are on order.  Really looking forward to hearing them.

Was hoping you may provide some biamping instructions.  While I would just use them with my integrated amp for a while I do happen to have two idle NAD 218THX amplifiers than can be switched or bridged into mono increasing their rating from 225 wpc to 780 watts continuous average output.  The disadvantage is when bridged they see half the impedance of the speaker.  For example a 4 ohm speaker is seen as 2 ohms and therefore not so good for speakers that dip below 4 ohms.  May work well with  M3 Sapphire since 8 ohms and the amps will have no trouble with the 4 ohms they would see.  Wondering if biamping the M3 Sapphire this way would be a good thing or if I should just use one of the NAD 218 in stereo or perhaps no biamping at all.

My integrated amp does sound better than the NAD 218 overall especially the highs and midrange.

JackD

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #64 on: 14 Aug 2019, 03:10 am »
What would you hope to gain by bi-amping a 90+ db speaker with two inferior amps as opposed to just using your admittedly better integrated?

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #65 on: 14 Aug 2019, 11:12 am »
What would you hope to gain by bi-amping a 90+ db speaker with two inferior amps as opposed to just using your admittedly better integrated?

Some of what the X3 has in the bass minus the DSP.  As Clayton confirm the 15" woofer driver is the same.  Also without the integrated amp driving bass it will have more power for the mid/treble.  As a result the integrated amp which has a 4 watt class A bias will spend much more time playing in class A.  So in summary more refined sound quality in mid/treble and much more control and power in the bass.  218 is great with bass.

Also just about any speaker can benefit from more power if they are quality watts.  Especially on speakers that are 95 db or less.

Shakeydeal

Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #66 on: 14 Aug 2019, 12:12 pm »
If refined sound is what you are after, I would look somewhere other than that NAD amp on the tweeter. Personally, I would use one NAD amp on the bass driver and a good moderately powered tube amp  up top.

Shakey


SnowPuppy77

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #67 on: 14 Aug 2019, 01:00 pm »
If refined sound is what you are after, I would look somewhere other than that NAD amp on the tweeter. Personally, I would use one NAD amp on the bass driver and a good moderately powered tube amp  up top.

Shakey

Exactly.  Check my posts you will see that the plan is to use the NAD 218 for the bass.  This would just be an experiment.  My current integrated amp, Ragnarok, sounds very good in mid/treble which is why my NAD separates are idle.  But using the NAD for bass with speakers that are biampable may be worth trying.  And I am thinking just like you are thinking “I would use one NAD amp on the bass driver and a good moderately powered tube amp  up top”.  Perhaps Raven or LTA as an upgrade down the road.  That is one thing I find appealing about the X3 is amp flexibility but can’t afford those right now so I ordered the new M3.  That said I have a strong feeling that I will be very pleased with the M3 Sapphire biamped or not.  And if I had to guess now, the Ragnarok integrated by itself may sound better than biamping.  But would be interesting to try biamping anyway since powerful NADs are sitting there idle.

P.S.  My Dad upgraded his NAD 218 to a Musical Fidelity Nuvista KW500 amp several years ago.  He then gave me his NAD 218.  Since I already had a NAD 218 I ended up with two.  I got a Schiit Ragnarok that I was strictly going to use as a headphone amp but tried it with my speakers to satisfy curiosity.  I really did not expect the Schiit Ragnarok to out perform my NAD separates but it certainly does.  The one exception would be bass power of the NAD.  Ended up being a blessing in disguise because now I use my best sources for both speakers and my high end headphones through the Ragnarok.

Shakeydeal

Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #68 on: 14 Aug 2019, 01:13 pm »
My first "real" amp was a NAD 216 being driven by a McCormack Line Drive. This was about 25 years ago. Having only used receivers before, this sounded pretty good. But upgrading to something a little better made an obvious difference.

Good luck with your M3 Sapphires.

Shakey

Tom419

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #69 on: 14 Aug 2019, 01:20 pm »
Clayton,  What would be the ideal room dimensions for a dedicated listening room the new M-series?  Thank you

Spatial Audio

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #70 on: 14 Aug 2019, 02:00 pm »
Clayton,  What would be the ideal room dimensions for a dedicated listening room the new M-series?  Thank you

A 13 or 14 x 20 is a good size. That gives you good space around the speaker for a bigger soundstage.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #71 on: 14 Aug 2019, 03:13 pm »
If refined sound is what you are after, I would look somewhere other than that NAD amp on the tweeter. Personally, I would use one NAD amp on the bass driver and a good moderately powered tube amp  up top.

Shakey
Some amp comparisons, including NAD and Parasound:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=161765.0

AmpDesigner333

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Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
« Reply #72 on: 14 Aug 2019, 03:23 pm »
Its like a normal dome tweeter with substantially beefed up features like a long throw suspension, very large heat sink and Ferrofluid thermal coupling. We have done in-depth reliability testing to make sure the device is of a sufficiently robust design to run without a high pass network. For good measure, on Sunday, I ran the M5 at a 90dB 1M average level with a drum/cymbal track with heavy dynamics. I ran the test for about 3 hours straight without distress. The heatsink temperature was close to ambient - so it definitely works well.

Snowpuppy- Yes, the 15 inch ST15 woofer was developed during the X3 development program. Same woofer.

Clayton
Very interesting.  Thanks for your answer, Clayton.  It’s amazing stuff, and I’d like to hear the M5 ASAP!

-Tommy O