[witchdoctor]

You mean typical lunatic.

This would not only be a work around for an SP3 that has a fried HDMI board, it would also be an upgrade to 4K . Gbaby, I realize you probably don't own a 4K display yet but the prices are now coming down and encourage you to get out to Best Buy and look around.  Here is the review of the dac:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-98-trinnov-altitude-32-essence-evolve-ii-4k-page-2

[witchdoctor]

BTW, how come someone from Bryston hasn't posted a solution? 

[CanadianMaestro]

BTW, how come someone from Bryston hasn't posted a solution? 

Busy posting rave reviews:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164484.80#msg1786507
 

[witchdoctor]

Busy posting rave reviews:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164484.80#msg1786507
 

Too busy pitching their stuff  to take care of their customers?? Not exactly a good excuse.

It is a sad day when my $300 receiver has a better HDMI board than a $$$ processor and the witchdoctor needs to do "tech support" instead of a company rep. Maestro why don't you help the OP out instead of busting my chops?

[CanadianMaestro]

It is a sad day when my $300 receiver has a better HDMI board than a $$$ processor and the witchdoctor needs to do "tech support" instead of a company rep.

Maestro why don't you help the OP out instead of busting my chops?

There is no evidence that your HDMI board is better than the SP3's board.

I enjoy doing both 

[Phil A]

Would be helpful (unless I missed it) to know what components are in the chain of connections (e.g. player, TV).  Some things may be known to have issues.  I have a Sony (55 inch) UHD TV in one room that drove me nuts with both momentary occasional video dropouts for a couple of seconds here and there as well as having network connectivity issues in that room and also audio dropouts when playing music over my network from an Oppo 203.  After changing network switches (e.g. tested all the in-wall cables with a tester too) and a bunch of other things, I discovered that the TV requires a constant handshake so it is something related to the TV.  Not really a big issue now as that room is my UHD room and back-up 3D room and probably in about 60 days or I'll be getting one of the 2020 65 inch models of TVs coming  along with a Panasonic DP-UB9000 and the current TV and player will get moved to the upstairs bonus room which is basically a guest bedroom (and I go up there a couple of times/year to use that system)  To listen to files via the network from the Oppo, I either have to leave the TV on or disconnect the HDMI cable.  I use that bedroom more for daytime TV (as the other rooms have lots of light).  I only have about 9 UHD movies and I probably only use the room to listen to music a handful of times/year.  Up until last week when a small Windows 10 PC bit the dust, I had a small computer monitor connected to the PC (and to a separate DAC) and my network to play files just to avoid the handshake issue.  When I get the Panasonic, I'll just do something else with the DAC since I'll use that to play files the few times/year I listen to music in there.

I formerly used expensive pre/pros and personally at this point, I'm not a fan (it's OK if it is someone elses thing).  I've had integrated AV systems with 2-channel preamps with HT Bypass (and the system I noted above has that feature and gets used) and get refurb receivers at places like accessories4less.com.  Surround technology changes much more rapidly than old school 2-channel and I use separate amps to drive the left and right channels and I like the results I get for both 2-channel and movies.  While my main system has a preamp with HT Bypass, when I watch a movie, I just borrow the amp from the above noted secondary system (my main system speakers are difficult to drive and the main system is too diffiicult to get behind the equipment) and plug in the left and right outs from the receiver preamp outs and I'm good to go.  When surround technology changes, I can always find a use for my current Onkyo 3100 in the main system by rotating it to another system (and then I can add a couple of more channels that system for fun) and get something refurb with the latest and greatest.

If possible, I'd try your current Bryston pre/pro (either in your house or somewhere else - e.g. dealer, friend) in another system with other components.  That way you can narrow down whether the problem is the Bryston or it's combination with other things.  Unless one has a space problem (and I understand that), one would be far better off dollar wise with a quality 2-channel preamp with HT Bypass (e.g. BP-17 if Bryston is your preference) bought either new or used and then get a good receiver with the features and channels you want.

[witchdoctor]

Phil, I agree. My man cave has a 9 channel Onkyo receiver at less than $400 which I'll recycle in a few years. The  main system has a music streamer using the analog outs to the pre/pro instead of HT bypass.

[WillyP]

Thanks all for your messages, especially Phil, who took the time for such an extensive answer.

I once had a 2-channel amplifier with HT bypass and an AV receiver. It had two disadvantages: watching a movie was a bit complicated, not for me, but for my partner and the sound quality in 2-channel mode was on a far higher level than in surround mode. The AV receiver was the best receiver I could buy for reasonable money.

That is why I decided to go for a processor / amplifier combination with superior sound quality in both modes. The old combination never had the issues like I am having now. It worked like a charm, always. No problems with handshaking, distortion or whatever.

I have kept the Blu ray player: a Primare BD32 (first version). All other audio devices ware traded in for what I have now: the Bryston SP3 / 9BSST2 combination. My TV is from Loewe, made in Germany. Audioquest HDMI cables are used for the connection between the BD32 and the SP3 and between the SP3 and the Loewe TV.

The problems with locking are without exception in the audio domain. I have never encountered problems in the video domain, the picture quality is always excellent.

I also have an audio streamer, with built-in DAC and headphone amplifier. The streamer is in use for 2-channel music and for watching a movie in the late hours. When I hear distortion with the SP3 I can check with the DAC of my streamer if the distorted sound is caused by the Blu ray player or the software. Until now, every time I have checked, the sound was clean. That is why I don’t think the problem lies within the Blu ray player.

One of the DVD’s that was causing trouble in my setup was tested in a completely different setup and again, the sound was clean.

HTH

WillyP

[Phil A]

Willy - just curious if you've used things like a Harmony remote for the significant other?  I use them in all my systems (even though it is just me).  When I use HT Bypass in that UHD system, it is programmed for that input (have a Sherbourn preamp in there).  When I listen to 2-channel music, it is programmed for the CD input (obviously wouldn't work if the 2-channel preamp is not remote controlled).  If you do a search, there are some posts about handshake issues on the brand of TV you have (I've seen it once in a store here many moons ago) - e.g. https://www.avforums.com/threads/loewe-hdmi-problems-help.1752469/  So it is possible that the TV is causing an issue.  The other thing you may be able to do if you want to keep what you have is try an HDMI audio de-embedder (Amazon carries them and I guess they are now referred to as HDMI audio extractors).  There's a long old thread in the discless circle as prior to computer/music server playback I used one to get 24/88.2 out of my old Oppo BDP-83 and into my (old Bryston BDA-1) DAC (and upsample to 176.4.  Basically it would pass thru the HDMI to the TV for video and then have a coax digital connection coming into your Bryston.  If you get something that is returnable (and they are not expensive) and it doesn't resolve the issue, you could always send it back.

I just like the freedom when receiver technology changes to go out and get something with the latest and then taking the main system receiver and rotating it to upgrade something.  For example, I'm using an old Onkyo 1008 in the master bedroom (had lightning damage a few years back and moved it from my office).   I use 2 channels for the outdoor speaker from that room.  I have in-ceiling speakers (5.1 set-up) but also wouldn't mind at some point something more modern and use the rear in-ceilings as Atmos channels.  I could also rotate it to that UHD system (using a Marantz 5010 and the rear in-ceilings as Atmos channels and could easily add front Atmos speakers).  When I had expensive pre/pros and then got dated, there isn't as much of a market for them.  I just find it easier to rotate and then give someone an old receiver.  Makes me happy to get something upgraded and then be able to help someone out.

I used a Bryston SP 1.7 for a long time in the main system (and the analog outs of an Oppo into its multi-channel inputs).  I did like having just one piece.  Then after I sold the Bryston (which didn't have the greatest market value), I picked up a used Integra (DTC 9. pre/pro.  Of course it didn't touch the Bryston for music but was way better.  That's how I ended up with the Onkyo 1008.  Bought it for the basement system in the old house.  Then for a bit it was in the main system for HT.  Then for a bit in the office system for 2-channel (I like something decent when I either sample music I'm interested in buying or extracting dsf files from ISO files created from SACDs).  Then after the lightning damage I moved it to the bedroom.  I'm waiting for 4k ultra short throw projectors to get a little bit more flexible and cheaper and then I'll upgrade the main system (pic below) and rotate the Epson 5030 projector to the bedroom and won't have a pole hanging down in the main room).  I'm hoping for next year (I'll watch CEDIA in September and probably get the room painted sometime within the next year).

[Phil A]

I should add if you decide to go the router of the HDMI audio de-embedder (extractor), that way back when the thread was active (it is here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82217.0), there may be some helpful information.  For example, while many of the de-embedders are inexpensive, some may find the better ones like the Atlona mentioned in the first post may have features like EDID (Google it).  Audio/video is not like the old days.  Many moons back and before even stereo VCRs I had surround sound.  I'd get a kick out of how amazed people would be by such simple devices with no issues (I had a Pioneer TVX-9500 like this one - https://www.ebay.com/itm/PIONEER-TVX-9500-TV-SOUND-TUNER-/183406127210   which would tune in TV channels in hifi or dual mono and then I'd send it to a time delay like this - https://www.ebay.com/itm/KOSS-K-4DS-DIGITAL-DELAY-SYSTEM-INTEGRATED-AMPLIFIER-Perfect-Working-Condition-/323546444972  to power rear channels and simulate larger spaces) vs. copy protection today which makes it tough.

[WillyP]

Thanks again for the replies, Phil. Much appreciated. Food for thought, although I have to read more about extractors, embedders, etcetera.

A universal remote could have made things easier for my partner, but I never had one. With a pre/pro all she has to do is choose the right input. That shouldn't be too difficult.

At the moment the situation is as follows: an HDMI cable between my Blu-ray player and TV; a digital coax cable between my Blu-ray player and my SP3. I hope to find out if the issues I’m having are related to the DAC board or the HDMI board of the SP3, or that it is a problem with handshaking between the Blu-ray player and the SP3.

I have tested this only for a short time, but until now there are not any issues. The TV locks immediately and so does the SP3, without distortions, glitches or other nasties - knock on wood!

This method has its disadvantages: I can’t play the SACD layer of SACD’s (I have about 100 of them) and in theory, the sound quality of Blu-ray’s is not as good as it used to be., although opinions are divided on this. It takes about 15 minutes for me to change the cables so an A/B test is not possible. I will test the new situation for about a month, or less, to find out which method I like best.

What is the advantage of an HDMI audio extractor under the given circumstances? Can you explain that to me, Phil? My Blu-ray player has outputs for HDMI, coax and 7.1. Isn’t this is the same as what such an extractor does? I never had locking issues with the video signal so there is no need for a device for that purpose.

Here and there I have read that under given circumstances it would be possible for an extractor to send the audio signals of an SACD to the coax output. I always thought that it was forbidden, but this would be a welcome addition if it is legal.

Kind regards,

WillyP

PS Nice setup! Very nice indeed.

[Phil A]

Willy - old Oppo players allowed one to convert SACDs to 24/88.2 and also allowed full 24/192 from DVD-As.  As far as I know, Oppo was the only which would pass 24 bit and do this (and the later players wouldn't do that.  The rest truncated the output to 16 bit and the newer players would limit what came out of the coax output. I have an old Integra (DPS 6.9 - in a spare system and only used if someone brings over a CD) which can do 176.4 but I had John Gatski of Everything Audio Network (a great review site) test it with his ADC/Sample Rate Converter and it was passing 16/176/4.  The long thread I put in the prior post goes into some of that.   John was instrumental in getting Benchmark to put the bit rate read out on their DACs.  I'd think that the Blu-Ray player would be more limited as to what it would pass via coax digital (vs. HDMI), but it will probably do 48khz.  HDMI is a one way digital connection done for copy protection purposes.

As I noted the problem could be the TV.  My Oppo 203 will not play audio without drop-outs if the TV isn't on due to the handshake issue.  That's why I suggested seeing if the TV has firmware updates or try the same combo of things on a different TV (either in the store, another TV in your house or at a friends).  Once you eliminate the TV as the potential issue, then other things can be looked at.  Does the Blu-Ray player have settings for HDMI audio?  I mentioned EDID (and I realize the thread is long) but some of that is noted in the specs here - https://atlona.com/pdf/manuals/AT-HD570_V4.pdf

I also remember reading (could be wrong as it was early in the product release) that the SP3 will just do 24/88.2 from SACDs via HDMI.  That's why I asked about audio settings (e.g output SACDs as PCM).  If the settings are not correct, you won't get sound from the SACD layer of a disc.  I know Oppo has a host of them as do most players.  I've been into file only playback for many years (I take the disc image from the SACDs and then extract the dsf file and these days it's few and far between as almost all of the dsf files I get via a purchase of a download - I might but a disc here or there).  There's another whole long thread (which you don't need to read) about taking SACD discs and converting them to files.  If the cables are a pain to change (and I understand that as I have that with my main system big time), then look at the settings and try different things.

[Phil A]

btw - from the Primare manual "HDMI is a single cable that can transport both audio AND video from your player to your display. Be aware, however, that HDMI is an evolving standard, and there could be compatibility issues."  The player also apparently has one HDMI output which is recommended for use of their video processing and another for other stuff.  Have you tried one to the TV and the other to the SP3?  That is also noted in the manual - "You can use the included HDMI cable to connect the HDMI 1 output to your HDTV and use another HDMI cable (not included) to connect the HDMI 2 output to your receiver."  HDMI audio setting would appear to be on page 25 of the manual.  Page 26 talks about LCPM rate limit and page 27 has charts about the set-up.  There's lots of sites that offer other tips - e.g. - http://www.stereoandvideorepairco.com/Troubleshooting/HDMITroubleshooting.html

[Phil A]

There are also posts which may (or may not) be helpful.  For example - http://support.bryston.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=284  or  https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1421006-official-bryston-sp3-thread-16.html  or  https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1381958-bryston-sp3.html or   https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/bryston-sp3-processor-review/  ("Of course hitting the Stereo button causes the SP3 to renegotiate an HDMI handshake which further delays listening to the movie. A similar problem occurs when listening to the balanced inputs. If you press the HDMI button while on the balanced inputs, the SP3 looks for an HDMI signal and won’t play the analog signal. All of this is very obvious of course, but it can be very confusing if you aren’t clear on exactly which input and which mode selection is to be used for the desired result. If you accidentally press the wrong button, it might take a moment or two to remember why you aren’t getting the expected result and you might find yourself waiting on the SP3 to renegotiate an HDMI handshake. This is also a challenge to explain to the not so technically savvy members of the family who might be using the SP3").

I realize some of the threads are really long.  Over the years, I've had or helped others with HDMI issues.  It is often a hunt and peck process.  That's why now with my main system being too hard to get to the back of the components, I just move an amp from a secondary systems and have longish RCAs coming out of the receiver (the preamp outs) to go into the amp.  I have one back-up system that is an integrated AV system with HT Bypass, a system in the master bedroom (5.1 and that systems feeds the outdoor speakers) a 4.0 system upstairs (basically a guest room), a back-up two channel system and the office system

[WillyP]

…
As I noted the problem could be the TV.  My Oppo 203 will not play audio without drop-outs if the TV isn't on due to the handshake issue.  That's why I suggested seeing if the TV has firmware updates or try the same combo of things on a different TV (either in the store, another TV in your house or at a friends).  Once you eliminate the TV as the potential issue, then other things can be looked at.  Does the Blu-Ray player have settings for HDMI audio?  I mentioned EDID (and I realize the thread is long) but some of that is noted in the specs here - https://atlona.com/pdf/manuals/AT-HD570_V4.pdf
…

Thanks, Phil, for all your trouble. To be honest, I don’t think the TV is the culprit. Before the Loewe, I had a Pioneer LCD TV and I was having the same issues. The Loewe has the latest firmware. There are in the setup menu for the Blu-ray player two options for HDMI audio: LPCM and Bitstream. The latter is my preference by far: the sound quality is better and fewer issues with distortion. For the coax output, I have the same options but LPCM is only available in 2-channel stereo as you know so for movies Bitstream is the preferred choice.

btw - from the Primare manual "HDMI is a single cable that can transport both audio AND video from your player to your display. Be aware, however, that HDMI is an evolving standard, and there could be compatibility issues."  The player also apparently has one HDMI output which is recommended for use of their video processing and another for other stuff.  Have you tried one to the TV and the other to the SP3?  That is also noted in the manual - "You can use the included HDMI cable to connect the HDMI 1 output to your HDTV and use another HDMI cable (not included) to connect the HDMI 2 output to your receiver."  HDMI audio setting would appear to be on page 25 of the manual.  Page 26 talks about LCPM rate limit and page 27 has charts about the set-up.  There's lots of sites that offer other tips - e.g. - http://www.stereoandvideorepairco.com/Troubleshooting/HDMITroubleshooting.html

This is exactly what I did when the SP3 arrived. Unfortunately, it didn’t work. When using the HDMI connections the SP3 will only lock if it is part of a chain, with a source and a TV or projector. It is possible to send the video signal (without audio) directly to the TV with an HDMI cable and the audio signal to the SP3 with a coax cable. That is the situation now. Of course, I have read the manual of my Primare. More than once.

There are also posts which may (or may not) be helpful.  For example - http://support.bryston.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=284  or  https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1421006-official-bryston-sp3-thread-16.html  or  https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1381958-bryston-sp3.html or   https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/bryston-sp3-processor-review/  ("Of course hitting the Stereo button causes the SP3 to renegotiate an HDMI handshake which further delays listening to the movie. A similar problem occurs when listening to the balanced inputs. If you press the HDMI button while on the balanced inputs, the SP3 looks for an HDMI signal and won’t play the analog signal. All of this is very obvious of course, but it can be very confusing if you aren’t clear on exactly which input and which mode selection is to be used for the desired result. If you accidentally press the wrong button, it might take a moment or two to remember why you aren’t getting the expected result and you might find yourself waiting on the SP3 to renegotiate an HDMI handshake. This is also a challenge to explain to the not so technically savvy members of the family who might be using the SP3").
…

I have also read the manual of the SP3 and the corresponding documents, so I am well aware of its contents. It is time for a new, structured manual for the SP3 with all options explained. It is a mishmash now and there are several menu options that I don’t understand.

Thanks again for your help,

WillyP

[Grant Hill]

Hello Phil,
how are you? just curious if you hear any difference in sound quality between the original SACD against the dsf extracted from it
thanks

[WillyP]

...
This is exactly what I did when the SP3 arrived. Unfortunately, it didn’t work. When using the HDMI connections the SP3 will only lock if it is part of a chain, with a source and a TV or projector. It is possible to send the video signal (without audio) directly to the TV with an HDMI cable and the audio signal to the SP3 with a coax cable. That is the situation now. Of course, I have read the manual of my Primare. More than once.
...

Would it be possible to fool the SP3 with an HDMI dummy plug, so it looks like a display is connected? Or can I expect handshake issues?

WillyP

[Phil A]

Hello Phil,
how are you? just curious if you hear any difference in sound quality between the original SACD against the dsf extracted from it
thanks

That would of course be dependent on a number of factors.  For example, what is one using for SACD playback.  I've owned things like an old (Modwright tube) modded Sony XA-777ES, Marantz DV9600, a (solid state modded Modwright) BDP-83, etc.  So I can't speak to every SACD player out there.  Also, it is dependent on what one is playing back the file with and what DAC they are using. I can tell you from what I've owned the sound quality is better from the dsf file.  I've used Windows 10 music servers with JRiver (playing back the decoded file from memory) and I currently use a Lumin U1 with an EMM Labs DAC 2X in the main system.  I still use a Windows 10 music music server (with a Hegel Integrated amp/DAC) in a secondary system.  I also have Oppo players (a couple of 103Ds and a 203) and prefer the file playback (which is currently from an NAS unit in my office).  So I can't make a blanket statement that it is going to be that way for every SACD player (e.g. PS Audio made a Perfectwave Transport that played discs, including SACDs, from memory like a PS).

[Grant Hill]

yes, that makes sense.
Thanks for sharing your experience

[Phil A]

Would it be possible to fool the SP3 with an HDMI dummy plug, so it looks like a display is connected? Or can I expect handshake issues?

WillyP

I guess the question is how sound would be getting to the SP3 (coax?).  The player you have has a secondary HDMI connection.  Have you tried using that (unless I missed it) to get sound?  I also mentioned EDID.  I don't know tons about it and I know some of the threads I posted are really long.  I know that some have benefited from an HDMI de-embbeder with EDID built in (the thread is old here on Audio Circle and long so you would have to read through it).  There are also devices like - https://www.black-box.de/en-de/i/13491/HDMI-EDID-Emulator(EDID-Ghost)/  I'm certainly not a video expert (I just read too many audio forums and have owned too many things in the past).  I guess with all the things I've owned (the Sony XA-777ES was $3k retail and I bought it barely used for $1.7k and then the tubed mod was $2.6k) and had experience with (had a friend who worked at a hifi shop and for about 6 years I did virtually every delivery and install with him so I've seen lots of stuff audio and video), while I do recognize that my preferences aren't necessarily good for everyone, I've just come to the conclusion for me expensive pre/pros and disc spinners are things to avoid.  I've literally seen $20k (or more) disc spinners that are door stops at this point (once the drive is no longer made the manufacturer isn't going to take that old technology and write new software for a new drive and drives are typically only supported for several years) and processors (e.g SP2) that sell for 10-15% of retail, which is insane as something like the SP2 is basically the functional equipment of the BP25 preamp in 2-channel.  I personally find it very easy with my Onkyo TX-RZ3100 when I decide to upgrade the main system (no plans in the immediate future) at some point to rotate it to a secondary system (e.g. like the system below where I'll be getting a 65 inch UHD in a couple of month and then adding front Atmos speakers and having extra channels to power the garage speakers on the other side of the wall) and then whatever is left over from the end of rotating things to other systems to give to someone who needs it.  I realize that doesn't work for everyone.  I've seen some nice expensive things at the recent Florida Audio Expo and of course I'd love to own them but some of the prices on higher end stuff is just too rich for my blood.