[stvnharr]

I will contact Robbins. I'll post the results of my query.

Hi, did you ever contact Bob Robbins, or get a reply if you did?
Just curious.

[stvnharr]

I have found some additional information on Sumiko/Master Set that could be helpful to those trying to do the procedure.

https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?p=979168
See Post #2 in this thread. This is pretty much the official Sumiko procedure. It's just 4 steps and describes the audio cues to listen for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjYTGV0LMcs
This longish YT video is really good for how it is when you try to do the Master Set procedure.  The audio cues are well described and should be quite helpful and hopefully lead to a good result.

[Martine]

Hello dear audiophiles
I am new to this Forum and would like to share my experiences with the "Master Set".
First of all I would like to thank STVNHARR for all the effort he has taken to make this method known to everyone. Also Bob Robbins and Guy Stuff with their YouTube videos. Back in 2015, I bought the official pdf from Bob, but it never really got around to executing this, sorry Bob.
For many years I have tried everything by sliding my Speakers, with sometimes better results than before, but never the result that "Master Set" now shows, where everything falls into place. However, I know that I still have to fine-tune.. Despite WASP (Wilsen) and Cardas, I tried many times, I didn't get the right result. Admittedly, M.S. is not very easy to perform, but I also did not expect that some things turn out to be audible if you take some effort, with the occasional step back. I was surprised that I had achieved this result so quickly after about 4-5 hours.
As indicated, tried several procedures because my Speaker's are playing everything, so even if it's not right, I gave up too quickly. Fortunately they are on good Iso coins, on a wooden floor, easy to move
My Speaker's, Goldmund Dialogue, are actually more instruments, they really let you hear and know everything.
A separate story is that I already had a set in the 90s that I also got rid of, because I couldn't get a DIY 300B SE amplifier right in terms of sound. I soon regretted that very much. I bought several Goldmund's when they came up for sale, to be sure to find a good set, even a Super Dialogue from France. At one point I had 3 sets! In the end I kept the best and original set. Very good and beautiful precise loudspeakers.
The M.S. I still want to fine-tune, because the Speakers are a bit too much too-in, they now play right in the face, which is a bit too much. It is a pity that the placement is close to the front wall, which is a large window for me. Certainly with the Cardas description they are much further into the room, but with less quality than with M.S. it appears that.
That the central focus of e.g. I can't hear a voice well in the middle yet.
The sound, the improvements, that I want to mention are diverse:
- there is more to observe in space, small details, including percussion
- more calm, not intrusive, no listening fatigue
- much more space and placement in itself, the Speakers disappear
- basses go lower, foundation, more power and impact, and more body to everything
- dynamics, real music
In short, everything sounds nicer, better, more natural, MUSIC.
I do note that several people are too critical, even the M.S. tear down. You don't have to do it or try it, but you're doing yourself a disservice and don't tear it down. The people mentioned above are doing their best to make everything public for everyone.!
It has become quite a story, but I hope that more people will try this anyway.
I asked on a forum in the Netherlands whether the procedure is known, but with very little result.
Regards, Martien, the Netherlands

[stvnharr]

Hello Martien,
So good to read of someone who has taken the time to learn and do this speaker set up procedure. It gives very good results and much music listening pleasure. Hopefully some of the links I have provided have helped you in your quest. I found the forum link in my last post to be the most helpful to me as it stated clearly the audio cues you need to listen for.

All The Best Martien,
Steve

[timind]

Hello dear audiophiles
I am new to this Forum and would like to share my experiences with the "Master Set".
First of all I would like to thank STVNHARR for all the effort he has taken to make this method known to everyone. Also Bob Robbins and Guy Stuff with their YouTube videos. Back in 2015, I bought the official pdf from Bob, but it never really got around to executing this, sorry Bob.
For many years I have tried everything by sliding my Speakers, with sometimes better results than before, but never the result that "Master Set" now shows, where everything falls into place. However, I know that I still have to fine-tune.. Despite WASP (Wilsen) and Cardas, I tried many times, I didn't get the right result. Admittedly, M.S. is not very easy to perform, but I also did not expect that some things turn out to be audible if you take some effort, with the occasional step back. I was surprised that I had achieved this result so quickly after about 4-5 hours.
As indicated, tried several procedures because my Speaker's are playing everything, so even if it's not right, I gave up too quickly. Fortunately they are on good Iso coins, on a wooden floor, easy to move
My Speaker's, Goldmund Dialogue, are actually more instruments, they really let you hear and know everything.
A separate story is that I already had a set in the 90s that I also got rid of, because I couldn't get a DIY 300B SE amplifier right in terms of sound. I soon regretted that very much. I bought several Goldmund's when they came up for sale, to be sure to find a good set, even a Super Dialogue from France. At one point I had 3 sets! In the end I kept the best and original set. Very good and beautiful precise loudspeakers.
The M.S. I still want to fine-tune, because the Speakers are a bit too much too-in, they now play right in the face, which is a bit too much. It is a pity that the placement is close to the front wall, which is a large window for me. Certainly with the Cardas description they are much further into the room, but with less quality than with M.S. it appears that.
That the central focus of e.g. I can't hear a voice well in the middle yet.
The sound, the improvements, that I want to mention are diverse:
- there is more to observe in space, small details, including percussion
- more calm, not intrusive, no listening fatigue
- much more space and placement in itself, the Speakers disappear
- basses go lower, foundation, more power and impact, and more body to everything
- dynamics, real music
In short, everything sounds nicer, better, more natural, MUSIC.
I do note that several people are too critical, even the M.S. tear down. You don't have to do it or try it, but you're doing yourself a disservice and don't tear it down. The people mentioned above are doing their best to make everything public for everyone.!
It has become quite a story, but I hope that more people will try this anyway.
I asked on a forum in the Netherlands whether the procedure is known, but with very little result.
Regards, Martien, the Netherlands

Thanks for sharing your story, and congrats on getting a sound which pleases you. I would love to see a picture of your system as a means to help understand your result.

[Martine]

The Dialogue's are placed near to the wall and window, but it is what it is.. Wonderful soundstage

[Martine]

Hi, I hope the pictures clear things up a bit. I may want to change a few points.
Maybe they try to place a little closer to the side wall. I also want to try to use less too-in, they are really right in your face now. But first I want to recover from the special result.
Thanks again to Steve and Bob. Also emailed Bob with the result, he thought it was nice that I have the Goldmunds, which he talked about in his presentation at RMAF 2014. I had already told him this at the time.
They are bitches of Speakers, they let you hear everything, even if it's not good.. But if it's good, then everything falls into place, like now.!

[stvnharr]

Hi,
Interesting to look at the picture. I see what you mean about the big glass window. Do you have any kind of curtain for the window?
As long as you follow the steps in the audioaficionado post #2 you are good. I wouldn't worry much about toe-in. Less is generally better, but it depends on the room.
Enjoy your music.

[Martine]

Hi,
There is indeed thin net curtains in front of the window, against the view from outside.
You can see, I have done the setup against the short wall, the long wall is not possible, but it works ok.
Not only the toe-in I want something less. I would also like to have the Speakers further away from the wall, but I don't think that's possible. If I try a placement that they are a bit more to the side walls? I'm not sure about keeping the singing voice in the middle, but I don't mind. As a whole it sounds much more natural and self-evident, I think that's the most important thing about the procedure. You now also experience real pressure from the speakers, not only the bass, bus also including the midrange with more body. Possebly this is gone, when the Speakers are more in the room, away from the wall. Thanks.

[Letitroll98]

To Martine's point above about the distance from the front wall, every pic I've seen of Master Set speaker placement ends up with the speakers very close to the front wall.  I'm wondering why this is so.  Every other speaker placement guide, and in my experience, the greater the distance from the front wall the better.  The old Audio Physic guide (not the new one which bears no relationship) had the speakers halfway into the room with the listening position tightly against the rear wall.  (This actually works really well if anyone wants to try).  Anyway, are Master Set users happy with soundstage, or are you more enamored with frequency response, the whole loading the room thing I've been hearing?

[stvnharr]

Yes, it is true that when speakers are set with Master Set they seem to be close to the wall behind the speakers. This is because one sets the speakers in the zone where the speaker is decoupled from both the wall behind and the wall to the side. It is much the same as the Wilson method's Zone of Neutrality. Note that this zone is never far out in to the room.
The first step in MS is to move the left speaker out in to the room until all sound seems to come from just that one speaker with both playing. I still remember the very first time I tried to do MS and the previous sentence's effect actually happened. I then got curious and kept moving that same speaker farther out in to the room. What happened was that once I crossed some imaginary line the sound immediately moved back to between the two speakers even though I had only moved the one and had left the other up close to the wall.
You want to have the speakers in that area where in the above step you only hear the one speaker.
The rest of MS is all about getting the best smoothest bass and then to match the second speaker. This gives the most even sound across the width of the listening position area.
When you move the speakers farther out in to the room you re-couple with a room boundary and you get limited to a small spot listening area and everything changes when you move off that spot.

FWIW, long ago I used to the old Audio Physic method, and of course thought it to be pretty good. It's just that you are limited to a just one listening position and you need to sit pretty still. Same thing with the Cardas tape measure set up.
All well and good but I do think one gets a better music presentation with MS. I used to listen a lot in Rod's Soundings store and his show set ups and it was simply the best music presentation I had ever heard anywhere. Voice especially sounded natural and very real.

[Letitroll98]

Thanks so much for your excellent reply, you couldn't have answered more perfectly.  And as I suspected, MS addresses FR and room interaction, freeing listeners from the one sweet spot chair.  This at the expense of massive soundstage dimension from one position.  For myself this isn't optimal.  I live alone by choice and no one close to me is the least bit interested in listening to more than a one cut demonstration of the system.  And being a soundstage freak locking into one chair is desirable.  I do map the room modes and measure for even frequency response, and employ a sort of opposite Master Set whereby I start with the speakers next to the listening position, 90° to either side, and move the speakers backwards in steps until the soundstage locks in, then adjust for frequency.  But I think Master Set might work really well in the living room video system (not a HT, a two channel set up) where several listeners around the room view the TV.  Thanks again for the explanation, it really helped.

[stvnharr]

Thanks for the note and I'm pleased that my reply was a helpful explanation.

[timind]

I guess it all depends on what you hope to accomplish. After years of using different rooms, different speakers, and different setup methods, I found I prefer the speakers out in the room further than the pics above. If you want 3 dimensional imaging with depth, you won't get it with the speakers so close to the wall. The front baffles of my speakers are a little more than 5 feet from the wall behind. The image depth begins to collapse at about 4 feet, and is very minimal at 3 feet.

[Martine]

Hi,
Previously I also had the speakers more in the room, but with M.S. procedure you will not be able to do that.
I wonder how Timind this with M.S. accomplished, or has this procedure not been followed in its entirety?
Would also like the speakers further away from the front wall, with me a large window, because it is just very inconvenient. I don't know if you did this with M.S. can reach, Steve tells you that you won't be comfortable with the rest of the procedure. It amazes me that there is still depth in my situation with the speakers so close to the front wall.
Regards, Martien

[timind]

Hi,
Previously I also had the speakers more in the room, but with M.S. procedure you will not be able to do that.
I wonder how Timind this with M.S. accomplished, or has this procedure not been followed in its entirety?
Would also like the speakers further away from the front wall, with me a large window, because it is just very inconvenient. I don't know if you did this with M.S. can reach, Steve tells you that you won't be comfortable with the rest of the procedure. It amazes me that there is still depth in my situation with the speakers so close to the front wall.
Regards, Martien

I tried the MS method after reading about it in this thread, and felt I had it done correctly. The center image was perfect and it stayed centered even when off angle. So what happened? Why are my speakers no longer set up as prescribed by MS? Simple answer is I wasn't happy with the sound. There are many other prescribed methods to getting proper sound so after investigation, I went with a modified Cardas method. I used an online calculator for the Cardas method for my listening area and tweaked it from there.

It depends on what you want to accomplish. The Master Set method did not accomplish what I want from my speakers. The difference in having my speaker 2 feet off the wall (MS) vs 5 feet is incredible. With the speakers out in to the room, the 3 dimensional image is limited only by the recording. You may prefer a different sound, but as long as I have an accommodating room, I'm not going back.

[stvnharr]

Nice to read some discussion here. 
I'd just like to bring up a couple of points.
One is the supposed 3D sound from having speakers way out in the room. Once upon a time I had speakers this way too and thought it fabulous in every way. Then one day while the music was playing I happened to walk between the speakers to the equipment rack for something. I easily noticed that the sound was not at the equipment rack, as it appeared to be from the listening seat. The music was behind me and between the speakers. This 3D sound is but a beguiling illusion, though it indeed can seem a nice effect. As Martine has pointed out, the 3D sound is still there with MS, and I agree. However I know how it goes and that's that.

Another thing is that the sound one hears from the two speakers is heavily influenced by the interaural time delay between the two speakers and the two ears we have. For whatever reason, when speakers are in the "Zone of Neutrality", decoupled area a couple feet out from the wall, or whatever you want to call it, the interaural time delay seems to completely even out over a large area, and thus the centered stereo image remains over a large listening area. And when the speakers are not in this area, the interaural time delays are different at every single spot in the room, and so it the sound that one hears. Thus the only way one can get somewhat decent imaging is to sit exactly in the middle axis of the two speakers and sit pretty still. This is perfectly fine for single listeners as noted in previous posts.

It's just listening to music and enjoying the moments of that listening.

[Letitroll98]

Yes stvnharr, it is an illusion, that's the whole idea of stereo reproduction.  And your experience of walking between your speakers is quite valid.  That's how I start with speaker placement, the speakers directly to the right and left of the listening position along a longitudinal line between nodes and nulls.  Then move the speakers towards the front wall until it clicks.  I've been intrigued with Master Set since it first came on the scene, but I've never tried it.  My thanks to you and everyone here explaining it, great posts.  I'm wondering if any MS users maps their room for nulls and modes, and if so where the resulting speaker placement lands.  BTW, if anyone wants to experience omnidirectional sound, pull your speakers out to either side of your listening chair, pointing forward as they are now, on the same lateral line they are now, just 90° to either side of your chair.  I suggest everyone do this to know how far down the soundstage rabbit hole you can go.  After all, it's as stvnharr says, is just enjoying these moments.

[stvnharr]

As to nodes and nulls............
There is a good You Tube video by the Dynaudio speaker guys that gets into nodes and nulls. I don't think I included a link to it in this thread though. FWIW, the basic idea of finding the "Best, Loudest, Smoothest" bass in MS is all about NOT putting ones speakers on a node or null point in the room. Doing it by ear is probably as good as any other way. Nodes and nulls are products of room dimensions and are there. You can take them out with DSP, but without a DSP program you just live with them. You have to have a music note that hits that particular frequency and how long does a singular music note last?

[timind]

As for the 3D illusion, not all recordings have this trait. If it's in the mix though, I want to hear it. You may get some of it with speakers back near the wall, but you won't get the full effect, you won't hear it as deep.

Also, my experience differs from stvnharr's when walking between the speakers. For me, even standing behind the speakers, I hear the sound mostly in front of me. This phenomenon has always amazed me.

After a lot of years, a lot of listening, a lot of gear, and several rooms, I've come to the conclusion there is no "right," there is no "better," there is only what the listener prefers. Find your bliss and enjoy it.