[Freo-1]

I am not sure which part of the article you are referring to but I really don't think local dealers are tricking their customers using slight of hand techniques so they can sell them something new.  If one really thinks that they need to find a new dealer.

Sure, dealers may over-boast about something but they are trying to sell things.  Often times they will let you borrow something like a power cable to use in your own system.  If you buy stuff like without trying it at home then you are guilty, not the dealer.

Go back and read the last two links I posted a bit closer.  Dr. Mark is not saying ALL dealers participate in this, but too often, people whose livelihoods are made by selling these items  do willfully mislead people.


www.realhd-audio.com/?cat=45


Here is an example of misinformation (this time regarding HDMI cables)


http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5540




The bottom line is that while people are free to spend their money as they wish, they should not be duped into believing something that is not true.  Car manufactures can't get away with publishing false data (hello VW), but there is no such oversight  regarding audio. 


Reminds me of the children's story:  "The emperor's new clothes".   

[witchdoctor]

Go back and read the last two links I posted a bit closer.  Dr. Mark is not saying ALL dealers participate in this, but too often, people whose livelihoods are made by selling these items  do willfully mislead people.


www.realhd-audio.com/?cat=45


Here is an example of misinformation (this time regarding HDMI cables)


http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5540




The bottom line is that while people are free to spend their money as they wish, they should not be duped into believing something that is not true.  Car manufactures can't get away with publishing false data (hello VW), but there is no such oversight  regarding audio. 


Reminds me of the children's story:  "The emperor's new clothes".

Let's call a spade a spade, Mark Waldrep is a guy who basically HATES cables. NP, we are all welcome to our opinions but please don't think his opinion is worth more than your own, or anyone else's.

[Elizabeth]

I enjoy the leap with no proof, that the chart is claimed to be a fraud.
I do not use HDMI for audio. However on video, DVD to 750p Plasma panel I still own (Hey I paid $4000 for that 42" and THAT was on sale back in the day. So I am glad it still works)
((See some things I can live with outdated stuff!!)) And on my old Plasma, I can easily see improvements with HDMI, power conditioning and power cords. I use over the air and not cableTV

[Cheytak.408]

I’ve always enjoyed reading threads like these.  They are always good for entertainment.

They are almost always driven by a person that has never and will never try anything new because they claim that the “science” isn’t there or consider their own opinions superior to everyone else’s.  Their science usually stops with LCR and they discount the other dozen or more parameters that determine competent cable design per the application.

Start here for the very tip of the iceberg:  http://alignment.hep.brandeis.edu/Lab/XLine/XLine.html

I have no desire to try to influence, educate or endlessly argue with such people because my time is better spent improving the sound quality of my system.

Party on 

[witchdoctor]

I’ve always enjoyed reading threads like these.  They are always good for entertainment.

They are almost always driven by a person that has never and will never try anything new because they claim that the “science” isn’t there or consider their own opinions superior to everyone else’s.  Their science usually stops with LCR and they discount the other dozen or more parameters that determine competent cable design per the application.

Start here for the very tip of the iceberg:  http://alignment.hep.brandeis.edu/Lab/XLine/XLine.html

I have no desire to try to influence, educate or endlessly argue with such people because my time is better spent improving the sound quality of my system.

Party on 

Take a look how Litz wire deals with the skin effect, FWIW I use Mogami IC cables in my HT:

http://www.mogami.com/e/puzzle/pzl-21.html

[S Clark]

Well, from my poor understanding of the article cited, http://alignment.hep.brandeis.edu/Lab/XLine/XLine.html,  skin effect is so negligible at frequencies under 20Khz as to be insignificant.  But I don't claim to follow most of the math.   

[Freo-1]

Here is a link to some information regarding cables.  Note there is explanation from a engineer who is directly involved with this:


http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6440

[Elizabeth]

Five pages.. Of what?  An easy twenty thousand or more over the years . All the same, nothing new about wires. naysayers, believers.. who cares? The MESSENGERS are who matter. Having a chance to /once again' air all the drivel that has been pent up inside. And there must be a huge amount of it, considering this sort of thread always generates hundreds of replies...   Get it out, feel free 

[Photon46]

Five pages.. Of what?  An easy twenty thousand or more over the years . All the same, nothing new about wires. naysayers, believers.. who cares? The MESSENGERS are who matter. Having a chance to /once again' air all the drivel that has been pent up inside. And there must be a huge amount of it, considering this sort of thread always generates hundreds of replies...   Get it out, feel free 

I don't think these debates are without merit. To my mind, they're a microcosmic illustration of how differently folks can interpret and experience reality. When I went back to college for a second time twenty five years ago, I worked a bit tutoring English Literature to younger students and many of them were engineering and math majors. I still remember with amusement how frustrated some became when confronted with open ended essay questions about poetry and literature. More than one would say something along the line of - "I hate humanities because they're subjective. I like math problems because there's a right and wrong answer and you never have to worry about interpretation." Some of us are more comfortable than others trusting subjective sensory impressions (that we should acknowledge are subject to unconscious biases and expectations.) Some feel the solid ground of reality becoming quicksand if they start trusting experiences that can't be confirmed with measurements and science.

In my case, I try to maintain awareness that I can be subject to confirmation biases, etc. Nonetheless, I do indeed hear differences between some cables in some applications that I feel pretty confident are more than wishful thinking. At worst, I can laugh at myself and admit I'm another example of how humans can entertain simultaneously opposing views on a subject. Which we ALL do, whether it's politics, religion, child rearing, food, health, or any of a long list of subjects. None of us are truly the logical Dr. Spock.

[Tomy2Tone]

Excellent post Photon46

[PDR]

It would be fun to see pics of the rooms these believers use to determine the vast differences in cables.

Up for it?

[Cheytak.408]

I don't think these debates are without merit. To my mind, they're a microcosmic illustration of how differently folks can interpret and experience reality. When I went back to college for a second time twenty five years ago, I worked a bit tutoring English Literature to younger students and many of them were engineering and math majors. I still remember with amusement how frustrated some became when confronted with open ended essay questions about poetry and literature. More than one would say something along the line of - "I hate humanities because they're subjective. I like math problems because there's a right and wrong answer and you never have to worry about interpretation." Some of us are more comfortable than others trusting subjective sensory impressions (that we should acknowledge are subject to unconscious biases and expectations.) Some feel the solid ground of reality becoming quicksand if they start trusting experiences that can't be confirmed with measurements and science.

In my case, I try to maintain awareness that I can be subject to confirmation biases, etc. Nonetheless, I do indeed hear differences between some cables in some applications that I feel pretty confident are more than wishful thinking. At worst, I can laugh at myself and admit I'm another example of how humans can entertain simultaneously opposing views on a subject. Which we ALL do, whether it's politics, religion, child rearing, food, health, or any of a long list of subjects. None of us are truly the logical Mr. Spock.

[veloceleste]

I don't think these debates are without merit. To my mind, they're a microcosmic illustration of how differently folks can interpret and experience reality. When I went back to college for a second time twenty five years ago, I worked a bit tutoring English Literature to younger students and many of them were engineering and math majors. I still remember with amusement how frustrated some became when confronted with open ended essay questions about poetry and literature. More than one would say something along the line of - "I hate humanities because they're subjective. I like math problems because there's a right and wrong answer and you never have to worry about interpretation." Some of us are more comfortable than others trusting subjective sensory impressions (that we should acknowledge are subject to unconscious biases and expectations.) Some feel the solid ground of reality becoming quicksand if they start trusting experiences that can't be confirmed with measurements and science.

In my case, I try to maintain awareness that I can be subject to confirmation biases, etc. Nonetheless, I do indeed hear differences between some cables in some applications that I feel pretty confident are more than wishful thinking. At worst, I can laugh at myself and admit I'm another example of how humans can entertain simultaneously opposing views on a subject. Which we ALL do, whether it's politics, religion, child rearing, food, health, or any of a long list of subjects. None of us are truly the logical Dr. Spock.

I was a humanities major and hated math because I could never solve the problem! We are all wired differently. Pun definitely intended!

[A_shah]

I enjoy the leap with no proof, that the chart is claimed to be a fraud.
I do not use HDMI for audio. However on video, DVD to 750p Plasma panel I still own (Hey I paid $4000 for that 42" and THAT was on sale back in the day. So I am glad it still works)
((See some things I can live with outdated stuff!!)) And on my old Plasma, I can easily see improvements with HDMI, power conditioning and power cords. I use over the air and not cableTV

Elizabeth,
I own a Panasonic 58" Plasma which was purchased in 1996 the dam TV  refuses to die on me in frustration I purchased  a 65 " Vizio P-65 from Costco which had all these rah rah reviews but to my surprise we found the Plasma to have a better picture !
So I sent it back and  a few months latter the LG C-8 65" went on sale so I purchased that ! now I finally have OLED Tv that beats my old Plasma , except now I still don't want part with the plasma ! yes cant say much about HDMI cables but audio cables certainly make a difference in my main system  I use a PS audio HDMI cable which I believe has a higher silver content and not as expensive but rated to give you 10Gbps  but not 18 gGbps  but I have no problem getting 4K picture quality with the cable ,  rest of my cables are mono price thin HDMI cables rated to give 18gbps no difference between the cables , I tried a fiber optic cable 2 meters is the shortest one can buy in fiber optics no difference so I sent it back !

[drummermitchell]

my oh my,being a musician for 40+ yrs and yes I got bit by the snake bite yrs ago.
redid 12 cables(jus cuz)1000+ per cable.
SOLD EM,STOCK CABLE,same micro/macro dynamics,noise whatever.
Pure BS.
The time and energy your physical body and mental state that goes thru changing ONE cable,for sure will change your mental/physical feeling.
EX:sit on the couch and lick your balls for 10min like a dog and then actually do something more physical,of course your physical and well being will feel totally different ..
Kinda like couch potato and someone going for a hour jog,I think my mental state is with the jogger.
Physically having to get up and change a cable,I'm sure you will feel a lot different doing that than sitting on the couch even if it takes two minuets.
Audio 10had it right .....look at the guys of a hydra 6..end of story,FK CG whoo hoo science...smoke n mirrors fo da money...fo da money.
Ya'll enjoy the rest of the weekend.

[witchdoctor]

It would be fun to see pics of the rooms these believers use to determine the vast differences in cables.

Up for it?

The Virtual Dynamics Nite Power Cord



Can you "see" the difference between this and a stock power cord?

[James Tanner]

I’ve always enjoyed reading threads like these.  They are always good for entertainment.

They are almost always driven by a person that has never and will never try anything new because they claim that the “science” isn’t there or consider their own opinions superior to everyone else’s.  Their science usually stops with LCR and they discount the other dozen or more parameters that determine competent cable design per the application.

Start here for the very tip of the iceberg:  http://alignment.hep.brandeis.edu/Lab/XLine/XLine.html

I have no desire to try to influence, educate or endlessly argue with such people because my time is better spent improving the sound quality of my system.

Party on 

HI James,

In the article you sent, the equation shown for characteristic impedance, Zo = sqrt of L/C,  is only an approximation and is incorrect for use at audio frequencies. 

Zo only tends toward a constant value at radio frequencies.  Text books rarely show the full development of the equation. 

The articles that I wrote for the Bryston Newsletter and Andrew Marshall's AIG are accurate and were fully endorsed by Stanley Lipshitz and John Vanderkooy.

James H.…

[PDR]

The Virtual Dynamics Nite Power Cord



Can you "see" the difference between this and a stock power cord?

You sure have a nice floor.....just not for a listening room, in fact exactly what you dont want.
I'll assume thats not your listening place floor.

Yes I can plainly see the difference.

I happen to have 2 Grant Fidelity power cords....I use them on my Musical Paradise MP-401 and Raysonic 128 CD player.
I also see the difference between my XLO speaker cables and ordinary off the shelf best buy cord.
I also see a difference in my various high end I.C.s and the stock ones I have boxes of.

See......I was just like you at one time. Then something happened.
I was brought to task and was proven wrong.....by actually taking a ABX test on my own equipment.
It was an eye opener.

I still keep and use all the above cables.....cause they LOOK nice.
Ive spent a lot of time making my dedicated listening room as nice as I can.
One thing I will say about all this snake oil cable......most of it is very pretty.
If you want to buy this stuff cause of looks.....knock your socks off, its why I kept mine.

Ive spent years.....YEARS...getting my listening room treated for my favourite
type of speakers.....open baffle. The use of proper treatments will get you 100
times further than any cord/cable change.

So......I'll ask again, how about some pics of the listening spaces you guys have
used to discover the vast differences in these cables.

Heres the one I used to discover.....I was getting snake oiled.

[witchdoctor]

"See......I was just like you at one time. Then something happened."

You were a witchdoctor!?!? Rock on bro

[Jonathon Janusz]

"See......I was just like you at one time. Then something happened."

You were a witchdoctor!?!? Rock on bro

Giving you the benefit of the doubt presuming that you just didn't understand the question and are not simply being antagonistic and snarky, an image of a power cord you are using is not what PDR was asking for.  He asked that those who have heard a difference in cabling to provide some information about the systems - and in the words within his question specifically the rooms those systems are in - in which these differences have been heard.

I won't speculate as to why, but hope to steer the conversation back closer to the direction of spirited but possibly constructive.