[mdfoy]

My room is pretty big, and has little echo. I have 2 244s, one between the speakers and 1 on the right front corner.  I know I need more, I moved to floor standers that better load the room. Any input is greatly appreciated.

speakers are along the long wall

[poseidonsvoice]

Hi,

Can you post more pictures, particularly from the listening position of this 30 foot wide and 20 foot deep room?

Do you have pictures with the current speaker/floorstander?

How tall is the ceiling?

What brand are your current speakers?

How far apart are the speakers? How far is each speaker to the side walls and front wall?

How far is your seated position from the rear wall?

Best,
Anand.

[JLM]

Bigger (rooms) are better, to a point.  The relatively low ceiling and posts are limiting factors as may be your speakers (for reaching realistic sound pressure levels) in a volume that big.  The best residentially sized rooms follow the Fibonacci ratios (for instance my room is 8ft x 13ft x 21ft), but of course those ratios can be stretched, especially for HT.  So I'd recommend partitioning off part of the space if serious about music listening.

What is meant by "little echo"? 

Two GIK 244 panels is a start, call them for advice.  Note that I have ten but have never considered myself a 'treatment guy'.

Oh, and lose/move the coffee table (terrible for reflections).

[timind]

My room is similar at 24x27x8 with a pole pretty much in the middle of the room. The support pole in my room is 18x12 inches so a bit more formidable than the OP's. After a lot of experimenting, I ended up setting my speakers in a diagonal configuration in one corner. This seemed to be the only way I could alleviate the problem of one speaker 3 ft from a wall while the other speaker was essentially in free space.

As for treatments, I GIK Tri-traps in two corners as a pair of 244 bass traps on the ceiling at first reflection point, a couple more 244 traps on the walls, 2 Evolution Polyfusors, and a bunch of homemade absorption panels in various locations.

Not sure if it would work for the OP, but it might be worth a try. Those 2 poles in the OP's room look life the biggest problem for him.

[poseidonsvoice]

Nice pic and setup timind!

Best,
Anand.

[timind]

Nice pic and setup timind!

Best,
Anand.

Thanks.

[mdfoy]

More pictures of my room

Speakers 7' apart, 3' off the front wall. Chair 10' away. The slight echo can be heard when I clap in a silent room, no echo of voices when talking. I tried the short wall. but the seat behind the lollipole was not going to work, diagonal either.

from the chair


right front corner



right back corner


left front corner


left back corner





back wall behind the chair


Speakers : Tekton Double Impact
Amp : Odyssey Khartago monos
Pre: Musica Bella Lusso
Dac/Transport : North Star M192 (empirical audio)
Turntable : Thorens TD125/Audiomods arm (out on loan), zyx yatra
phono pre: Heed Quasar

[poseidonsvoice]

What is the height of your ceiling? That is your closest 1st reflection point judging from your pics.

Play some bass heavy music. Walk to every single corner in your room. Which corners have loudest or boomy bass?

Any possibility of doing in room measurements?

Best,
Anand.

[Early B.]

Those poles present a conundrum, perhaps unredeemable. Do you have another room available to set up your system? 

[mdfoy]

the ceiling is 7.5' throughout most  of the listening area and goes to 8' to the right of  of the right lollipops. I would have gone with a different configuration, but Wife gets in the way.

[poseidonsvoice]

mdfoy,

Okay, let's work the problem. I am going to assume for now, that the listening position and speaker configuration is set up as is and there is little if any chance in changing it or moving it dramatically (i.e. a different room or a completely different area in the room you have them in). In addition, I am going to assume that reconstruction of this room is impossible, i.e. removing the two vertical pillars.

I would begin by treating your first reflection points.

The closest one you have is likely the ceiling. I would draw a line from the main listening position (MLP) to each speaker. The midpoint of that line, on the ceiling is where you should place a GIK 244 or equivalent 4 inch to 6 inch absorber. Do that for each speaker. Next I would place one or two GIK 244's (depending on how many will fit) on the ceiling over the MLP, to act as a 'cloud' absorber. Next, I would place a GIK Monster Trap behind the listening position (either 1 or 2 next to each other) on the door behind the MLP. Then, I would install 2 or 3 GIK 244's or Monster traps on the front wall between the speakers.

I would remove the coffee table, since it is probably at a reflection point on the floor (it is the same reflection point on the ceiling as described above). Carpet or a throw rug should be sufficient for the floor.

In order to minimize both the visual and acoustical deterrent that the two vertical pillars may cause I would move the MLP a little closer and turn the lights down. That's up to you though.

Some other advice:

You have speakers that are very sensitive (99 dB), are ported in the rear, and are attempting to control directivity which is a good thing. From an acoustical standpoint, you essentially do not have side walls, they are very far away. I would recommend a preamp that is only about 3-6dB gain and a power amp with lower gain and lower power as well which should render a system that has a lower noise floor and hence more detail. Your preamp is about 15dB gain. Your power amp is at least 100 watts and about 26dB gain if I recall. With the speakers that you have, you really do not need more than 10-20 watts even when you are cranking it to 100dB SPL. You already have a phonostage I am assuming so you should be getting enough gain from there to satisfy your vinyl playback. Your digital source has an output of 2V RMS which is standard and will work fine with a highly sensitive speaker (99dB!) as long as your preamp gain and amplifier gain isn't too high, hence my advice.

If you do not like the looks of the GIK 244's you can always use the Alpha series or Impression series and get similar performance but a better look. Or you can use Art Panels which are just decorated print versions but more expensive. You can discuss that directly with GIK.

Read about 1st reflection points on the GIK website and/or RealTraps website. Ethan Winer had some nice diagrams on the RealTraps website.

I would consider the above first, before considering any pure diffusion panels which should be implemented, carefully.

Good luck,

Best,
Anand.

[timind]

Nice post from Anand. I would only add a couple points. First, it would still benefit your room to bass trap the corners. Pretty sure GIK will recommend this, as they did when I called them. Next, I would advise building your own 244s. I have one from GIK and three home made versions. Although it's not the case with the first two I built, by the time I built the third 244, I had it down. Most difficult part is getting the fabric to look perfect.

There are two home made 244s on my ceiling which are barely noticeable. I mean, I've had people in who have been listening for 30 or more minutes in my room, and only after I point out the ceiling traps, do they notice them.

[poseidonsvoice]

Nice post from Anand. I would only add a couple points. First, it would still benefit your room to bass trap the corners. Pretty sure GIK will recommend this, as they did when I called them. Next, I would advise building your own 244s. I have one from GIK and three home made versions. Although it's not the case with the first two I built, by the time I built the third 244, I had it down. Most difficult part is getting the fabric to look perfect.

There are two home made 244s on my ceiling which are barely noticeable. I mean, I've had people in who have been listening for 30 or more minutes in my room, and only after I point out the ceiling traps, do they notice them.

Yup, the corners closest to the main speakers would be my priority if I had the budget to treat the corners as well. I would recommend TriTraps or Soffit bass traps there. Again, lots of options.

Best,
Anand.

[bpape]

Corners are the most efficient place to absorb bass as they are the end of 2 (or even 3) boundaries where bass builds up.  Anand is addressing non-modal cancellations from behind you as well as height modes and any SBIR from between the speakers and the ceiling reflections.

[danvprod]

Great room! You are lucky to have such a big space. Listen to @poseidonsvoice, he knows what he is talking about. Generally, the biggest levers you can pull are 1:

1. Bass traps (at least 4-6" deep) at first reflection points.
2. Bass traps in as many corners as you can get.
3. The rear listening wall either with absorption or diffusion if you have enough space.

Measurements will help! And I'm happy to look at this too.

[Hipper]

As a matter of interest, how damaging to the sound are those posts?

For example if the speakers were further apart and you could still see all the drivers at your listening position (so that the sound direct from the speakers would reach both ears), would it really make that much difference?

[mdfoy]

Hipper,

The posts are not a problem.

poseidonsvoice,

Thanks for the informative post, a lot of information.
Some other advice:

You have speakers that are very sensitive (99 dB), are ported in the rear, and are attempting to control directivity which is a good thing. From an acoustical standpoint, you essentially do not have side walls, they are very far away. I would recommend a preamp that is only about 3-6dB gain and a power amp with lower gain and lower power as well which should render a system that has a lower noise floor and hence more detail. Your preamp is about 15dB gain. Your power amp is at least 100 watts and about 26dB gain if I recall. With the speakers that you have, you really do not need more than 10-20 watts even when you are cranking it to 100dB SPL. You already have a phonostage I am assuming so you should be getting enough gain from there to satisfy your vinyl playback. Your digital source has an output of 2V RMS which is standard and will work fine with a highly sensitive speaker (99dB!) as long as your preamp gain and amplifier gain isn't too high, hence my advice.

Replacement of the preamp and amp is out of question at this point.

I would remove the coffee table, since it is probably at a reflection point on the floor (it is the same reflection point on the ceiling as described above). Carpet or a throw rug should be sufficient for the floor.
Are you referring the coffee table in the rear right side of the room?
The floor is already carpet, are you suggesting a throw reg on the carpet?

Yup, the corners closest to the main speakers would be my priority if I had the budget to treat the corners as well. I would recommend TriTraps or Soffit bass traps there. Again, lots of options.
I walked the room playing bass heavy music, the most bass was in the right and left rear corners, and behind the speakers

Mike

[poseidonsvoice]

Mike,

Your 1st picture in this thread showed a table in front of the MLP. That is the table that JLM and I were addressing.

Looks like you removed it because your subsequent pictures now show your current system and setup. Your 1st picture, I am sorry to say, misled me (and others).

Since your floor is carpeted, it should be fine.

As bpape stated, I was trying to deal with the SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference) issues that all rooms have that use loudspeakers as a playback device (headphones don’t suffer from this of course!). Treating the corners is an easy answer, but doing other treatments I recommended will provide you with even better results. You can do it a little at a time. No need to go to the extremes right away.

Making measurements will most definitely help, but you have to be able to take the measurements properly and interpret them too. I have seen several on this forum give up too early in the process, unfortunately, inspite of having plenty of instructions and recommendations available online particularly on AV Nirvana forum.

I have found that proper room treatments and acoustics are not exactly “intuitive.” What you think is the right treatment or setup may not be right at all so it is best to ask and do a tremendous amount of reading!

Best of luck,
Anand.

[mdfoy]

Guys,

Your informative feedback is greatly appreciated (teach a man to fish) ! I have to give GIK a call to set up a a plan of action.

Mike