[Hantra]

Audio is a bad, bad affliction.  In fact, it's so bad that I find myself at times chasing things that don't exist.  I hope I am not the only one that does this.  

For the past few weeks, I have been hungry for more bass, and so I have been researching subs again.  I already know this is a bad idea b/c I have tried matching up a sub to my two channel system, and I can't do it.  It never gets better with a sub, and has gotten worse before when I tried it.  

So I started thinking about it in more detail, and trying out different things from cables, to more powerful amps.  But honestly nothing would get me the extra bass I was looking for in my system.  

So I went and listened to a friend's system last night.  He has some really sweet Quad 63 USA's and I was even amazed by the bass he is getting from those with the exact same amp I have!

I started wondering what to do last night and I turned on some Leo Kottke/Mike Gordon, which has ample bass, and actually had very good bass in my system.  

I put back on the Steve Kimock I had been listening to steadily for a few weeks.  It's a show from 12/29/2005 in San Francisco, and is a very good show that's quite well recorded.  But I realized that the bass I was looking for was just not there.

So this entire time, I have been chasing something that doesn't exist.  

I think one of the main reasons I spent so much time chasing this is because of the audio press.  In the Stereophile review of the model above my Piegas, they stated that they were light on the bass.  I knew better because I have spent many hours with the C8 Limiteds and they DO have great bass.  And quite frankly, so do mine.

Now with that said, I do believe that the bass on the Piegas is very tight, and tuneful and not exaggerated in the least.  There are many speakers with more bass, but when it's in the material, you get it from these.  I think I just want more bass than is in the material at times, and to get it, I am going to have to probably change speakers.  But if I do change to a speaker with more bass, such as the Wilson Sophia, or something else that I haven't heard yet, then I will have too much bass.  

In my small room, when the bass is present in the material, I have PLENTY of bass, and it's to the point on this Kottke/Gordon collaboration where MORE bass would be horrible.  

Also, if I give up my Piegas, I will be giving up the best highs, and mids I have heard in a speaker.  So chasing something like this is almost futile b/c to get it, you have to give up something that's amazing, and also, I am chasing something that doesn't even exist.  

Has this ever happened to any of you?

Thanks for listening,

B

[Steve]

Hi B,

     Yes I experienced this. I think your system is close to neutral as some systems produce alot of bass, whether it is wanted or not. It just keeps booming out, with the result muffling of the mids. However, different recordings will have different amounts of bass, which a good system should replicate, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, I think many recording studios need to improve their product by using better quality recording equipment, IMHO.

[Marbles]

Just bring in a subwoofer in parallel with your piega's.

[Todd A.]

"It never gets better with a sub, and has gotten worse before when I tried it."

I sincerely hope you're wrong, since I have a pair of Force on order to augment the bass from my CLS IIZs

Having said that, I believe you may indeed be chasing something that doesn't exist, in that you may be attempting to recreate the sound of a recording as you feel it should be, rather than accepting it as created by the recording engineer. That particular course of action is a recipe for frustration. Every speaker has its strong and weak suits, and if you like the Piegas as much as it appears, I would think you'd be better off working with them than replacing them in a never-ending quest for the unattainable.

I had a pair of Martin Logan Sequel IIs that I blamed for poor bass for years. It was only after I had tried many different combinations of amplifiers on them that I realized just how demanding those speakers were on the bass - most amps just didn't cut it - and a Tandberg 3016A did the job right nicely. I was never happy with those speakers thereafter unless they were biamped. I therefore suggest you try the same thing, i.e. if the Piegas are bi-wirable, try passively biamping them. You don't necessarily need a huge amplifier on the woofers, but you do need an amp with good control. Put the larger amp on the woofers, and if the bass amp doesn't have gain control, you may need to use a simple gain attenuator in the leads going to it so you can balance everything out. The benefits you'll realize go far beyond a simple increase in power - you should notice a significant increase in transparency, and you may well discover that your bass issues are also resolved to your satisfaction.

It's an easy experiment if you have a buddy with a spare amp, or a spare in the closet. Just be warned - once you hear a setup biamped even passively, you may never want to go back to a single amplified system again. As always, YMMV.....

Be well,
Todd

[TheChairGuy]

Hantra,

You're not alone in your bass quest.  I'm in a 12 x 15' room and have never had anything larger in 20 years of hi-fi.  I've had a few speakers and the less bass each had, by and large, sounded the best.  Bass is really hard to get right in a small-ish room...no matter the treatments the room undergoes.

For me, the speakers with stated responses of better than + or - 3 db at 50 Hz or so were the worst to hear.  By worst, I mean they had many good attributes, but bass is muddy, gloppy, whatever.  I know I'm missing some 'substance' in music now, but my Magnepan MMG's are never tiring and always pleasant to listen to in conjunction with the JVC F10 receiver.  

I have a really nice, fast N.E.A.R. passive sub, but I most often don't use it. It's plenty fast, but the bass to me is off-kilter with the music.  It's just inorganic with it playing too often.  Hard to explain, but easy for me to hear it almost every cut.

So, I live happily (for now   in my diseased state) with a $550 speaker (tweeked a little) with a 50-24kHz response in my 12 x 15' listening.  It's sounds like music to me, and I only once in a while miss a heavier bassline in my mostly jazz cuts I listen to.  If I listened to more classical, I may miss it more.

[ohenry]

My opinion of bass in my system seems to change on a daily basis.  I think the previous opinions are correct that it really is all about the recording.

Regarding subs, I have a TBI that Ed Schilling recommended and I have never found it to be detrimental.  It's driver is small, light and fast, and it keeps pace and integrates with the single-driver horn very well when crossed over low (40 - 50hz).  It's not slamming and sexy (it's a smallish sealed box with a hole in the back), but it's great for music reproduction.  It's really worth a look if you have medium to small-room bass woes, but it's not the kind of thing found to be resting under the hatch of a '95 Civic or in a HT setup.  

[Hantra]

"It never gets better with a sub, and has gotten worse before when I tried it."

Well I was referring specifically to my own system, and not any and all systems. . .

[Marbles]

If I add subs several feet behind the speakers, on the plane of the soundstage, subs blend surprisingly well.  It also helps to have a sub amp with a huge damping factor, and have a light hand on the sub volume control to blend them with your speakers.

I do not run my speakers through the active XO, just the subs, and I have the subs EQ'd to flat FR in room.

I have two sets of outputs on my pre-amp and this helps with the setup.

[ohenry]

Just another passing thought that intrigues me.

I read an account of a tweakaholic that was searching for a solution to deficient bass.  His investigation eventually revealed that the issue was really due to a hump in the mids/highs instead of a fault with the bass.

He went on to say that many times perceived deficiencies point to exaggerations elsewhere...

[Rich Carlson]

I've achieved what I think is excellent bass using stereo subs (ACI Titans) with stand-mounted main speakers (Paradigm Ref. Signature S2's), and a little EQ in the bass (via z-Systems RDQ-1).  Measured at the listening seat using the Radio Shack meter and the Rives test disc (tracks calibrated to the RS meter), it is +/- 2 dB all the way from 20 hz up. Like Marbles, the subs are a couple of feet behind the main speakers, and blend very well. But - the right amount of bass on many good recordings is not bass that will jump out at you, and too much very low bass (below 30 hz or so) will often make bass sound unnatural in a way that doesn't scream "too much bass." I think this reinforces ohenry's point. Todd, I think you'll be able to get great bass with a pair of Forces, if you're patient with setup.  

Having said all this, I'll add that I was never able to get bass I liked when I had largish floor-standing speakers in my room, so my comments might not apply to your situation.  My best effort at that was with a sub in a really odd position (one end of the listening sofa, about 8 feet from the speakers).

Rich

[ted_b]

B,
I've done this (chase what isn't there) many times, and each time I luckily catch myself before it's too late!  In most cases it's been like your quest, the quest for more bass....just because you're listening to something that doesn't have true bass in the material but you're wanting it anyway.  Whenever that kind of crazy demon arrives, I throw on stuff like Beck's Mutations or a good Mapleshade recording.  I'm immediately reminded that I have plenty of bass.  That's not to say I'd love to have it spread around better, of course.  I am forever tweaking the room treatments to smooth out the troughs and peaks.  Ethan's Mini Traps have helped a lot.  So have good VH interconnects (and Audience, too....I know)

Anyway, as long as you don't cut off your nose to spite your face you'll be ok.  It's a delicate balance that most of us have found ourselves in, and it's easy to lean too far in one direction and spoil it.  The weakness I have is to lean, then lean some more, realize that if I'm going to commit to going in the new direction it means changing 4 or 5 pieces, then overcompensate and quickly get back to center.   Wastes a lot of time!

I was just in that mode the past few weeks with digital gear, etc.  Realized early enough that I LOVE my analog stuff (Modwright, vinyl, SACD, etc.) and can't do without it's musicality in my system, regardless of the benefits of the digital stuff I was evaluating (DSP, etc.).  And...as you stated above, this is only about MY system.  Others have benefitted greatly from the same digital gear, and more power to them...........! Hmmm......more power?......yeah, I'm gonna go buy more power...............

Ted

[Rob Babcock]

As with most things, it appears that most truths in audio are subjective.  What works for one may not work for another.

[Carlman]

I don't know... are you chasing something that's not there or not?  I think the Usher's I have are insanely good at bass.  In fact the whole speaker is like pressing the 'loudness' button on a receiver.  Sure, there's a little more bass than there's supposed to be and maybe a little more sizzle in the highs.. but, it's fun to hear.  I haven't gotten tired of it in the 6 months+ I've had them.

I equate bass with emotion.  When I hear more bass (especially articulate/detailed bass) I connect with the music better than without.  The best midrange I've heard would take a back seat to incredible bass.

The Usher's are like mini-Revel F30's without harsh midrange to me.  They have a big speaker sound.  There was a crossover upgrade to the 718 that brought the midrange to an incredibly good level while maintaining a little extra bass and slightly hot highs.

In any case, the sound I like to hear is indeed different than the sound that was engineered in most cases.  I'm OK with making the sound more appealing to me.  (One of the reasons I went with an Audio PC was to tweak the sound the way I like.)  

My point is that you should decide priorities of your sonic goals and go from there.  If neutrality and perfect midrange/highs tops your list, you are indeed chasing something that you can't have.  (In my opinion, based on my failings with subs also)  However, if you're starting to think more bass is going to be a top priority, I'd wait until you've had more time with a system that gets those priorities right.

Oh, and uh.. if ain't broke don't fix it.. etc..

[RichardS]

Hey B
If you want to hear some subs integrate well with the mains, try out a Tact or DEQX system. You can put the subs in the corners and time/phase align them, and flatten (or bump) the frequency response to taste (or set up different presets for recordings you want to hear more/less low bass/midbass from).
I tried the (TBI) VBT subs and they're pretty good and blended better than others I tried in my second system, but they just didn't move enough air for me.
I'm presently using RBH subs (dual 10") which are pretty clean and move lots of air. I agree with you though--I tend to like a robust bass with power that makes you feel like you're there.

[Hantra]

Hey B
If you want to hear some subs integrate well with the mains, try out a Tact or DEQX system. You can put the subs in the corners and time/phase align them, and flatten (or bump) the frequency response to taste (or set up different presets for recordings you want to hear more/less low bass/midbass from).

Well that's another sticking point.  I was reminded yesterday by my favorite dealer that I am not going to get what I am looking for, for the amount of money I am willing to spend.  Too few dollars chasing that last very expensive few percent.  I mean if I could spend $2,000 on a preamp and a couple more grand on a sub, I would be inclined to give it a try.  

Thanks for the suggestions guys. . They are appreciated.

[doug s.]

...In fact, it's so bad that I find myself at times chasing things that don't exist.  I hope I am not the only one that does this...

huh?  what kinda creep would wish others had the same affliction *THEY* have?!?  

seriously, being a bass freak myself, i know why ya mite want more.     before i could give any meaningful specific suggestions, i'd wanna know yer room dimensions.  in general, tho, i'd recommend a pair of subs, flanking your monitors, crossed over actively w/an outboard electronic x-over.  the (relatively) recent use of a dewice such as the tact or deqx may also be a wery good idea.  if yure yust getting yer feet wet w/such a dewice, ya may wanna experiment w/a far-less-expensive item such as the dbx driverack or behringer 2496.

doug s.

[Hantra]

huh?  what kinda creep would wish others had the same affliction *THEY* have?!?  

seriously, being a bass freak myself, i know why ya mite want more.     before i could give any meaningful specific suggestions, i'd wanna know yer room dimensions.  in general, tho, i'd recommend a pair of subs, flanking your monitors, crossed over actively w/an outboard electronic x-over.  the (relatively) recent use of a dewice such as the tact or deqx may also be a wery good idea.  if yure yust gett ...

My room is 12.5 x 14.5.  Could I use some software to do what a DEQX or TacT would do?  I am sure there is something out there, but I am not sure if it would do the same thing. . .

[vpolineni]

brandon, since you are using your lynx l22's analog outputs, you can implement digital room correction for less than 200 dollars:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=14160&highlight=
i plan on doing this with my rme.
*edit*-it seems the link geofstro provided isn't working anymore.  I have the pdf file if anyone is interested.. pm me and i'll email it to you.

[Hantra]

Hey Richard:

When you first used the TacT and corrected your room, did you feel like anything was "missing" at first?  I did some DRC with software this weekend, and although many aspects are great (especially the bass!), I feel that some HF information is just gone.  But I do hear more detail, if that makes any sense.  Just not at very high frequency ranges.  

Just curious.

Thanks!

B

[zybar]

Hey Richard:

When you first used the TacT and corrected your room, did you feel like anything was "missing" at first?  I did some DRC with software this weekend, and although many aspects are great (especially the bass!), I feel that some HF information is just gone.  But I do hear more detail, if that makes any sense.  Just not at very high frequency ranges.  

Just curious.

Thanks!

B

B,

With the Tact pieces of the music I was missing are now there to hear.  The cool thing with the Tact is that if you feel like something is missing, you can create a curve or correction that addresses it.

I am super happy with the Tact and will not go back to a non-corrected system.

George