[pacifico]

Hello All,

       I am trying to decide between speakers with ribbons and maybe say silk dome tweeters. I have heard that ribbon speakers have superior imaging but a limited soundstage. Is this true? Would I be better off with silk domes for example. For you speaker builders out there: What is your philosophy in terms of tweeters? Why did you choose one type over the other?

[JoshK]

Not to be condescending, but that is a loaded question, so I'll start by asking a few questions.

1)  Are you planning to build your own speakers?  This makes a big difference in how we can answer the question, because if you are looking to narrow a search on pre-fab speakers I would say this really isn't the best specification on whether a speaker will preform to your liking or not because so much has to do with the implementation.

2) How do you listen to music?  Standing up, walking around some of the time or seated always?  Ribbons CAN have limited off axis response depending on the choice of the ribbon and the implementation (xo type, point, etc).  

That said, some typical things that are said about ribbons is that they tend to be very smooth in their subjective sound, they also happen to have very extended response, which is in my opinion partially related to their great imaging.

[Jon L]

Hello All,

       I am trying to decide between speakers with ribbons and maybe say silk dome tweeters. I have heard that ribbon speakers have superior imaging but a limited soundstage. Is this true? Would I be better off with silk domes for example. For you speaker builders out there: What is your philosophy in terms of tweeters? Why did you choose one type over the other?

I wouldn't worry so much about ribbon vs. soft dome vs. metal, whatever, if you are buying pre-built speakers.  I've heard great and horrible speakers in all the tweeter categories, and it's really in the whole implementation.  

If you are building speakers, it's good to keep in mind that not all "ribbons" are created equal, same with soft domes, metal, etc.  If you are going with one tweeter, I would recommend the biggest ribbin you can afford, not stressing the ribbon's lower ranges.  If more than one can be used, I would use a ribbon for supertweeter (maybe >12-15kHz) and use something like ring radiator for below that.

[Music Maven]

I can't contribute much to this, and I must say I've never owned any speaker with a ribbon tweeter, but my preconception is that, most ribbon tweeters do not last as long as the domes. This may or may not be correct but it is what I heard.

Jerry

[Marbles]

I own speakers with some of the better dome tweeters, Scan Speak Revelator 9900, and Scan-Speak 9700, in addition I have heard the great Hiquiphon tweeter.

I prefer the Arum Cantus ribbon tweeters.

There is a speaker builder who has recently switched making his speakers with the Hiq. for the Arum Cantus as well.

If I could chose the driver, it would be a ribbbon.

For that matter, I would chose a ribbon/planar midrange as well if I had the choice....

[audioengr]

I have full-length ribbons in one of my speakers and here is my experience:

Ribbon tweeters are a good idea, but they cut-off quickly with vertical dispersion, so the seating position is critical.

Full-range ribbons have to be crossed-over at the right frequency or they will sound thin or break-up.

They create great horizontal imaging.

Can be difficult for an amplifier to drive.

Ability to deal with dynamic music varies a lot from one ribbon to the next.  Very few do it well.

[jholtz]

It looks as if you’re getting a variety of feedback, some of which I agree with and some I don’t. I’ve had Selah audio line arrays utilizing 8 JP-2 Fountek ribbons per side for several months so I’ll share my experiences. I might also add that I was bitten with the DIY speaker bug several years ago and have built speakers using numerous domes during that time. I have also listened to a variety of different brand of ribbons in direct comparison to some of the best domes at the DIY events around the nation.

1st, some basics. All ribbons have exceptional horizontal dispersion. The longer the ribbon, the more limited the vertical dispersion. The shorter the ribbon, the better the vertical dispersion. Read Dr. Jim Griffins line array white paper located on audioDIYcentral.com for a complete explanation.

Shorter ribbons like the Fountek JP-3’s and Aurum Cantus G-2’s have excellent vertical dispersion that easily equal and exceed the best domes. This translates into exceptional imaging. The downside of short ribbons is that typically, they require a 2.5K crossover minimum. Longer ribbons will cross lower but have limited vertical dispersion. Longer ribbons are perfect for line arrays, bad for point source speakers. All of the current ribbons except for Raven’s are easy loads to drive so that is no longer a concern.

One final thing, don’t confuse pure ribbons and planar tweeters. Planars are often called ribbons but are completely different in construction and sound quality.

Now, the sound. Ribbons in comparison to the best domes will have a more open airy sound that to my ears is more natural. Domes tend to have a bit more body to them sound wise but less of the “real” sound to my ears. That is often construed as a thin sound by some. Listen to well implemented ribbons for awhile and domes start to sound hi-fi rather than real in comparison. This is my opinion of course and like everyone else, is influenced by my tastes. I have a number of excellent point source speakers using some of the best domes in my house due to my DIY speaker building habit. I like them but I can’t imagine listening to music without my Omegarrays and their ribbons.

Hope that helps.

Jim

Hello All,

       I am trying to decide between speakers with ribbons and maybe say silk dome tweeters. I have heard that ribbon speakers have superior imaging but a limited soundstage. Is this true? Would I be better off with silk domes for example. For you speaker builders out there: What is your philosophy in terms of tweeters? Why did you choose one type over the other?

[BrunoB]

Here are some square ribbon tweeters with similar horizontal and vertical dispersion (according to the manufacturer): http://www.e-speakers.com/products/lcy-components.html

[Kevin P]

Simple.... ribbons suck and domes don't.  

Ribbons of any length have a different verticle dispersion pattern than the horizonal.   Try matching that with a radiating surface that has a different dispersion pattern.   What you end up with is uneven off-axis behavior at crossover.   Also... long ribbons act like a line source.   The measured performance varies with seating distance.    More traditional driver act more as a point source so it is difficult to design them for anything but a fixed listening distance.   If you consider even off-axis performance a priority I'd have a hard time understanding why you would choose a ribbon.

In addition ribbons are very fragile and easy to damage.   They have poor power handling and their measured distortion levels are not really any better than a good dome, especially under power.  

In terms of what sounds better that is like asking someone what beer is best.   I imagine that if you designed a speaker with a particular ribbon tweeter operating in it's intended range and made sure you listened in the right position it could almost perform as good as a dome.  

Flame on  

[Rocket]

Hi,

I have a raven tweeter in my custom made speakers.

http://www.e-speakers.com/products/raven-tweeters.html

I agree with their lack of vertical dispersion but i listen to my speakers seated and don't have any problems with them.

Hifi is so subjective that at the end of the day it is best to buy what you like and not listen to other people's opinion.

Best wishes

rod

[tkp]

Simple.... ribbons suck and domes don't.  

Ribbons of any length have a different verticle dispersion pattern than the horizonal.   Try matching that with a radiating surface that has a different dispersion pattern.   What you end up with is uneven off-axis behavior at crossover.   Also... long ribbons act like a line source.   The measured performance varies with seating distance.    More traditional driver act more as a point source so it is difficult to design them for anything but a fixed list ...

What about a line of woofers such as ten Seas magnesium 5" in the Selah Audio Incredarray?  Would they act like a line source or still a line of point source so that the radiating pattern would be different than a line of Fountek JP2 ribbon?

[Kevin P]

Nope... used as a line array they at least match the dispersion and wavefront of the array of drivers.   Of course line arrays are best far-field.   Only really long arrays don't have comb filtering effects the alter the seated to standing FR.   They are a rich man's speaker because you need lots of drivers & a big room.  

I'm not a fan of line arrays.   That is a taste thing to some degree.   They can sound good in large venues but typically don't in smaller domestic sized settings.

[tkp]

Nope... used as a line array they at least match the dispersion and wavefront of the array of drivers.   Of course line arrays are best far-field.   Only really long arrays don't have comb filtering effects the alter the seated to standing FR.   They are a rich man's speaker because you need lots of drivers & a big room.  

I'm not a fan of line arrays.   That is a taste thing to some degree.   They can sound good in large venues but typically don't in smaller domestic sized settings.

What is your definition of far field in this case?

I do agree that line array sounds best in large room.  The listenning position will depend on the line length.  In the case of Selah Incredarray, I found out that the listenning position has to be minimum of 9 ft with the speakers are 6 ft apart (inside edge to inside edge).  The interesting thing is that I can hear exactly where the far field and near field point is (roughly around 14 ft in my setup).  I much prefer the near field listenning with them.

Some people think that line array is far superior to conventional point source.  I don't share this view and happen to agree with you that in a small to medium size room, a good point source might do better.  I will find this out in a few months because I am in the process of building the Selah Audio RC4 for a small room (11ft x 11ft x 9).  I could have gone with another line array but decided not to because of the room size and I do like variety.  The RC4 has similar quality parts (Hiquphon tweeter, Seas W15, Seas W22 and Peerless XLS)  as the Incredarray and will be build with higher quality cabinet (HDF instead of MDF).

[Ravi]

Kevin, I totally agree with your post on the ribbon vs dome stuff...

Ribbons are very airy, and have a lot of 'perceived' detail.  But is that detail in the original signal, or is it an added harmonic content?  Me thinks the latter.  Also, to add to Kevin comment about harmonic distortion, ribbons are typically far and away worse in distortion from 3rd order on.  The 3rd order distortion is generally no better than the 2nd, which is not a good sign.  The same is true for 4th order.  This could all lead to the 'air' that we hear.

But, in the end, listen to what sounds pleasing to your ears.  If graphs is all we would go by, we would all have the same speakers, and maybe a sound that we don't care for, or is uninvolving.

Its a hobby, lots of different flavours.

[Rocket]

Hi Ravi,

What ribbon tweeters have you auditioned?

Regards

Rod

[Ravi]

The only true ribbons I've heard for an extended period are the Aurum Cantus G2, G2Si, and the Ribbon tweeter in the Maggie 3.6.

I've heard from a friend who owns both the Fountek JP3 and the G2Si saying that the sound is pretty much identical as is the the Freq response.  The distortion reports I referenced were not done by me, but a well respected and very knowledgable individual.

[Rocket]

Hi Ravi,

I have never heard the aurum cantus ribbon and can only relate to you information provided by the person who designed my speakers.  He stated he didn't think that the tweeter was as good as the raven which is made/designed in the states.

Although, another speaker designer liked the aurum cantus tweeter better than the raven.

Anyway i like the sound of that particular tweeter.

Regards

Rod

[jholtz]

Kevin,

You obviously prefer the sound of domes to ribbons. That is pretty evident and that's OK. Different strokes for different folks.

I will take exception with some of the opinions and comments stated as truth though. Short ribbons act just like a dome and are point souces. You're way off on the dispersion patters not matching and a they have to be designed for a specific listening distance. Both incorrect. Crossover orders and speaker design determine the lobing patters of the drivers and integration is seamless in a properly designed ribbon speaker. Listen to Any of Selah audios ribbon design or Jim Salks speakers with Dennis Murphy's crossovers. Seamless integration through out. Off axis response is waaaay better than nearly any dome and is nearly equal to on axis.

Tell me at what length a ribbon becomes a line source? I suggest you read Dr. Griffins line array whitepaper for a full understanding of how this works. A short ribbon tweeter is no different from domes when designing. Listening distances wil be the same.

I think you also commented they are fragile. The new Founteks are very robust and do not need special care. Don't blow on the rest or use a vacuum cleaner to clean your speakers but beyond that no worries. I've had my Omegarrays cranked way over 100 DB at my 15' listening position during demos for other people and they breeze though effortlessly. That's less than 10 watts, BTW.

Some ribbon designs suck if the designer does know they're doing just as many dome designs suck by poor designers. Opinion is not fact, only opinion.

Jim

Simple.... ribbons suck and domes don't.  

Ribbons of any length have a different verticle dispersion pattern than the horizonal.   Try matching that with a radiating surface that has a different dispersion pattern.   What you end up with is uneven off-axis behavior at crossover.   Also... long ribbons act like a line source.   The measured performance varies with seating distance.    More traditional driver act more as a point source so it is difficult to design them for anything but a fixed list ...

[Rick Craig]

I can't contribute much to this, and I must say I've never owned any speaker with a ribbon tweeter, but my preconception is that, most ribbon tweeters do not last as long as the domes. This may or may not be correct but it is what I heard.

Jerry

Ribbons will last as long as any dome.


Rick

[Rick Craig]

I have full-length ribbons in one of my speakers and here is my experience:

Ribbon tweeters are a good idea, but they cut-off quickly with vertical dispersion, so the seating position is critical.

Full-range ribbons have to be crossed-over at the right frequency or they will sound thin or break-up.

They create great horizontal imaging.

Can be difficult for an amplifier to drive.

Ability to deal with dynamic music varies a lot from one ribbon to the next.  Very few do it well.

Actually the vertical dispersion is related to both the ribbon length and how the ribbon is loaded by the faceplate and magnet structure. Most ribbons have some amount of horn loading by the faceplate in order to extend their low frequency extension. With a proper crossover design the effect on the vertical dispersion can be minimized when using a smaller ribbon.

Except for the old Apogee ribbons (really low impedance) ribbons are easy to drive with a very flat impedance provided by the step-up transformer.