My pathetic incursion in the digital world

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #20 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 03:29 am »

Got any good heavy metal CDs?

JLM · « **Reply #21 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 10:47 am »

rimhai0,

Try looking to a recent thread I started over on the multi-channel/digital circle. Same price range, several good machines listed. I don't have the same compliants, but don't plan on replacing whatever I get anytime soon either.

Modded machines and separate transports/DACs are nearly impossible to home audition. Tubes may very well help. (My speakers use Fostex drivers that always seem to respond well to tubes.) The Quad 99 doubles as a high quality pre-amp with digital sources. The Onyx CD-1 may be the real sleeper here. Most of the others (including the EEMMCD with tubes accessible from the outside of the cabinet) can be modded via underwoodwally and Canadian Parts Connextion.

Don't confuse RAM mods offered by Modwright and Response Audio with Reference Audio Mods (RAM) who also mod players and other equipment.

woodsyi · « **Reply #22 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 03:34 pm »

rimhai0,

I always assumed the PCM and the filtering required to present music in Redbook format would be inferior to good anolog system. It is, but it's getting better. I have a Northstar 192 transport and DAC with upgraded IS2 digital cable from Brad at Revelation that really comes close to sounding anolog. I listen to vinly 80 perscent of the time. I toggle between 2 set ups -- Koetsu/SME4/OracleV and Benz/Rega/Basis. First is emotional and 2nd is more analytical. Both are more musical then the CD or SACD (played through Sony XA 777). The difference to me is that CD is good for "studio music" that takes advantage of wider dynamics. Anolog, to me, is still better at capturing a live performance, especially with music that are well orchestrated with rich harmonies. The blending of harmonics and rise and fall of notes are much better integrated on anolog than in digital.

Bear in mind though that I ended up with all tubes on all components except the amps for bass. I could be prejudiced.

woodsyi · « **Reply #23 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 03:35 pm »

rimhai0,

I always assumed the PCM and the filtering required to present music in Redbook format would be inferior to good anolog system. It is, but it's getting better. I have a Northstar 192 transport and DAC with upgraded IS2 digital cable from Brad at Revelation that really comes close to sounding anolog. I listen to vinly 80 perscent of the time. I toggle between 2 set ups -- Koetsu/SME4/OracleV and Benz/Rega/Basis. First is emotional and 2nd is more analytical. Both are more musical then the CD or SACD (played through Sony XA 777). The difference to me is that CD is good for "studio music" that takes advantage of wider dynamics. Anolog, to me, is still better at capturing a live performance, especially with music that are well orchestrated with rich harmonies. The blending of harmonics and rise and fall of notes are much better integrated on anolog than in digital.

Bear in mind though that I ended up with all tubes on all components except the amps for bass. I could be prejudiced.

John Ashman · « **Reply #24 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 06:28 pm »

Quote from: rmihai0

ANd BTW, why in the same system the turntable, the tuner and even the TV sound way much better than the CD-player?

That means is not the system problem - is the CD-player problem.

Incorrect. CD is far more transparent than any of the other sources you have. So, it is the system making the CD player sound bad, not the other way around. Which takes us back to the fact that you prefer the sound of vinyl and other less than transparent sources. I don't begrudge anyone who prefers the sound of vinyl, but if you try to find the CD player that sounds right on your system , you're going to spend a crapload of money and not get there. If you want a CD player to sound good, you have to change your system or some other part of the system or acoustics to make that happen. Unless you're into the placebo effect.

John Ashman · « **Reply #25 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 06:36 pm »

Actually, I think the real culprit is the lack of bass - you need a subwoofer. Right now, you have no bass and by having less treble energy in your other sources, it would sound warmer and more balanced. A CD player will give you better treble extension, but without bass to match, it will sound bright and unforgiving.

Horizons · « **Reply #26 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 07:15 pm »

The closest thing to vinyl in a digital world comes from a non-oversampling, filterless DAC.

ack dack!
scott nixon tubedac

IMHO, any other one box CD solution will find you in the terminal upgrade mode.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #27 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 07:18 pm »

I have to agree with John's analysis. The inherent distortion in vinyl replay systems adds body and warmth to the recording that are not present in the master. Many people prefer this sound and it is a valid choice. The actual master can sound quite a bit different. When comparisions were made between vinyl
records and the analogue masters they were made from in the past the master tape was prefered over vinyl copy. The recording medium that comes closest to a live mike feed is probably the most accurate.
CD replay comes closer to this goal more often than vinyl.
As for why CD sounds bad in your system I cannot say.
Bad is a value judgement that has nothing to do with accuracy of sound reproduction and everything to do with personal preference.
Your CD player may have .003THD and the DAC in the player may be >.0003THD. While distortion does not tell the whole story it may be a contributer here. The other sources mentioned as part of your system are probably no better than .01 THD and your tube amplification chain is dominated by added 2nd harmonic distortion. This adds the aforementioned body and warmth. I would recommend trying an AH! Neoj Tjeob player with a tube output stage. You might like the sound it has over your current player. Scotty

TIC · « **Reply #28 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 10:10 pm »

rmihai0,

As Jeff (JLM) mentioned, the Quad 99 CDP might be the answer. I have this player and I think it is fantastic at the $1495 list price. It has excellent mid-range, smooth highs and the bass is extended and has great definition.

I've owned lots of CD players priced $500-$3500. The Quad is my second favorite, but half the price of my favorite (Resolution Audio Opus 21).

Another great feature of the Quad is the fact that it has digital inputs and can be used as a DAC for other digital sources (transport, DVD player, etc). This is a great way to add a DVD player to your system to play concert DVDs (if your TV is in the same room).

I've been very happy with the Quad and haven't felt the urge to upgrade/change.

Enjoy,

TIC

ScottMayo · « **Reply #29 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 11:26 pm »

Quote from: rmihai0

Eric,

I have the feeling that you are right. Garbage in garbage out. A better system will just accentuate that. But, maybe, there is something out there - maybe these chinese players, or maybe if I will just add a tube output to the actual cd-player will di it better than before.

But as you said, from ones and zeros cannot be obtained music.

Well, no. You can get music from 0s and 1s. It jst takes a lot more of them than CD players typically handle.

For example, pay an orchestra 1,000,000$ to play live concerts for you. At that price, they will even pause, skip tracks, and rewind, though I don't suggest you try their fast forward. Zeros and ones do the trick in the right demonination.

Seriously, you can represent any waveform to any level of accuracy, with 1s and 0's, if you process enough bits per second. I'd like to hear 64 bit resolution at 500,000 samples per second, personally: I bet it would sound *just* as good as anyone's analogue set up.

But the CD would be a trifle large...

The bottom line is, you like a certain kind of coloration (if you like what *any* tuner does, that's the only explanation - even good tuners play music from studios with less than audiophile gear). Tubes are probably the way to go, in that case.

Ask your favorite radio station what kind of gear they use - it's almost certainly digital, these days. And it's probably affordable stuff - commercial groups don't do botique electronics. You might be able to replicate their "sound" with their gear.

And maybe media really is the culprit. I have a Gerry Rafferty CD. I play it on my computer's sound system; it's almost unlistenable though my stereo. I find SACD to be a whole lot better than Original Flavor; Norah Jones comes over just fine.

Rocket · « **Reply #30 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 11:28 pm »

Hi,

The eastern electric cdp are being sold direct now and cost $900us. It has a review at 6moons.com

regards

rod

Johnny · « **Reply #31 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 01:25 pm »

Anyone here listened to or own the CEC cd3300?
$419 from Audio Cubes.
Best integrated player <$1000?

For that matter, anyone have experience with Audio Cube?
Good or bad?

Cheers,
John

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #32 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 03:31 pm »

Guess what, Scott? That Norah Jones disc was converted to 16/44.1 PCM during the mix. There's a lot of discussion about it online, including some pro sites if you google for it. If you think that one sounds better than CD, you're hearing pure placebo effect.

doug s. · « **Reply #33 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 03:32 pm »

i would get either a modded art di/o (bolder cables, or diy), or an ack! dac, or a scott nixon dac, (or a benchmark or mytek& any decent transport <$500. this will get you at least 98% of whatever redbook cd has to offer, imo. anything else is throwing money away, unless you *really* need that last 2%.

personally, i believe that you can more cost-effectively taylor the sound to your taste with amp/preamp/speakers, than trying to get better digital sound by spending any more on the digital source itself.

once yure beyond a certain level of quality, yure yust splitting hairs, imo, & with redbook digital source equipment, that level is presently ~$1k...

ymmv,

doug s.

rmihai0 · « **Reply #34 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 04:55 am »

Thank you very much all of you. Very very much. You made me understood the problem from several perspectives. I decided to go with separates. For the DAC I chose to go with the Ack! Dack! 2.0.

Now I am coming back, and I am kindly asking you: for what transport shopuld I look for? Up to $1100 (new or used)

John Ashman · « **Reply #35 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 05:37 am »

A high-end subwoofer would have done a lot more for you for a lot less. Or just getting full range speakers. CD is a much more transparent medium than vinyl. Any quibbles you have with CD sound has to do with mixing, not the technology itself. And DVD-Audio is DBT tested to be indifferentiable from a live feed. That's something vinyl couldn't do with the finest rig available. I've never heard a CD player with as much coloration as vinyl and, if it existed, would have such poor specifications that no one would ever own it.

eric the red · « **Reply #36 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 08:27 am »

This is a never ending circle that no transport or DAC will ever cure. Just because the cd as a neutral music carrying medium and the most transparent cd reproducing player ever manufactured is in your rig doesn't mean that what you will hear coming out of your speakers is music that is pleasing to your ears. Uncolored xs and os coming from my speakers does not mean that I am listening to something that I enjoy and hear as music. The most transparent cdp in the world is not going to convice me that what I am hearing is necessarily pleasing to my ears.

JLM · « **Reply #37 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 10:39 am »

IMO "the" two transport options around $1100 are:

Modded Sony DVP-S7700 (see glowing reviews from AC for Empirical Audio mods and their circle/site here). Used S7700 run about $200 - 250. Empricial Audio mods run $500 - 1325.

The new CEC belt drive transport, see Audigon. This recommendation is less well based, but previous CEC belt drives were very good (with many being very expensive) and CEC is what several DAC manufacturers (including Ack Industries) use for product development. Occasionally you can score a used CEC or Parasound (built by CEC) on Audiogon, but be careful to make sure its belt driven.