My pathetic incursion in the digital world

rmihai0 · « **on:** 25 Jan 2005, 11:43 pm »

In 1998 I tought that is finally the moment to try the new technology: CD's and CD-players. And so started an incursion in digital world, an unpleasent incuriosn, plenty of dissapointments. I changed the CD-player each year, hopping for real results - hoping that I will be able to listen as I used to listen to my old tuner and my old turntable. I will just enumarate the years and the CD-players that I tried each year:
-1998 MARANTZ CD-48
-1999 NAD C520
-2000 CAMBRIDGE AUDIO D500 SE
-2001 MARANTZ CD6000 OSE LE
-2002 ROTEL RCD02
-2003 VINCENT CD-S1.1
-2004 ROTEL RCD-1072
As you might think, I increased the budget yeach year hoping for better. In the same time, I was reluctant to spend too much and to try more expensive CD-players, just because, to my ears, evry single try was a delusion and a big disapointment, and I was, and still I am, that going in more expensive gear won't help either.

Now, 2005 is here. ANd I have the feeling that I would like to try again. After 7 ! disapontments I am keep hopping. This time I decide to increase the budget up to $1100 for an integrated player or up to $2200 for a transpor and a DAC.These are quit some amounts to invest in digital, for me at least, as long as I am not a believer anymore. It will be my last try.

So, my question to - can you advise me, within the budget mentioned, what should I lok for? I today market there are just too many options for me to keep up. Give me some hints please.

The music that I listen is classical 70% and 30% divided randomly between jazz, "easy listening", "electronical", old hard rock, and "world music".
What I would like to get: 1st priority: a laid back beautiful midrange wise system, and 2nd priority (if posible both) the hear the details of instruments in large orchestras.

My other components: unfortunatelly (or not) a very very detail oriented: Ellis 1801b and a custom made integrated amplifier that will be replaced by an AKSA 55.

What I am missing from what I have delivered by my turntable and tuner:
- a REAL bass CONTINOUS extension;
- the sentiment that you can listen as loud as you like, because the CD-players used until now prrof to be harsh and agressive for my ears
- the laid back feeling, because the CD-players that I listened until now lake the transients and the dynamics confered by an analog gear.

With all the due consideration

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 12:12 am »

Mr. rmihaiO:

Having gone through much similar experiences as yours over the years I would suggest that you look at CD players with a tube output stage. IMHO they sure do sound better than ones with digital outputs. Also I have found that good interconnects seem to take the harshnes and brightness out of the CD player sound.

Cheers
Charlie

Rocket · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 12:20 am »

Hi,

You could replace the standard clock in your current player with a good quality one. In my experience it improves the sonics of the player quite a bit.

An external dac might be something to consider;

Perpetual Technologies p3a (can be bought off audiogon really cheaply. get it modded by dan at modwright)
ack dack!
scott nixon dac
art dio (modified by bolder cable)

You might also want to consider a modify cdp. underwood hifi have some reasonably inexpensive ones, modwright is another to consider.

Regards

Rod

rbrb · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 12:22 am »

I know how you feel. I also took the misquided path down the Hi Rez hi-way and have now come full circle. All though I really like DVD-A and SA-CD I have found that the players that I could afford, my last SA-CD player listed for $1700 CDN, were compromised Redbbok players.

I have taken delivery of a HIT/Cayin CD22 with a tube output stage. This player sounds amazing. The tube output is so smooth and relaxed and the SS output is more detailed and punchy. I have the best of both worlds in one player.

Check it out here

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hit/cd22.html

and here

http://www.charismaaudio.com/products_HA.html

Rocket · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 01:04 am »

Hi,

Why not consider a modded player from parts connection who are located in Canada. Apparently they do good modifications.

Regards

Rod

John Ashman · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 01:09 am »

Either

1. You just prefer the coloration of vinyl, something CD players don't have

or

2. Your system isn't up to the quality of a decent $500 CD player.

You can change CD players til the cows come home, but it's unlikely either of the two above problems will change, unless your brain accepts it as a placebo.

What system are you using?

rmihai0 · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 01:14 am »

Reynaud Twins - upgraded caps - will be replaced soon by Ellis 1801b
Thule IA 60 B heavily modded - will be replaced soo by an AKSA 55.

rmihai0 · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 01:16 am »

ANd BTW, why in the same system the turntable, the tuner and even the TV sound way much better than the CD-player?

That means is not the system problem - is the CD-player problem.

ZooDog · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 01:30 am »

Maybe try and find a used Naim CD5. I do not own one myself but Naim players have a reputation of being very engaging. I did audition a Naim system a few years ago with Totem speakers and I recall coming away from it with positive thoughts.

Dennis M. Clark · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 01:41 am »

rmihaiO The Sony NS999ES modded by ModWright with tube output will change your thinking of digital! Dan Wright does wonders with this unit.

Call Dan or send an e-mail. Service and work are outstanding! Dennis M. Clark

dstroot · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 01:42 am »

I would suggest a good transport (one can be had for not too much money) and then you can experiment with DACs (the device that actually converts the 1s and 0s to music). Newer DACs with upsampling and possibly a tube output are much less "harsh" than the old redbook CD players from even a few years ago. There are some good suggestions in the thread already.

WEEZ · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 01:46 am »

I can sympathize... I have never heard digital that can compete with good analog sources. Never. I'm in the same situation as you. I've been auditioning players off and on myself.

That said, some players are easier on the ears than others. And you don't necessarily have to use a tube output player to achieve that more analog sound. But you might have to spend some money.

It is almost universally accepted that the Rega player (Planet) is one. The dynamics are compromised- but it's by far easier to listen to than most in it's price range. I may still buy one.

Another is the Arcam CD73. More laid back than most- and priced OK. But there is something about it that doesn't quite get there- can't describe it. Maybe a little thin sounding.

You could use a separate dac with your existing player. I'm told the Bel Canto DAC 2 is great- but I've never been able to listen to one- and it's not cheap, either.

Best thing to do is to talk some dealers into loaning you one for a weekend and try it. I've been doing that for over a year- and haven't bought one yet- so ther you go

WEEZ

eric the red · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 01:50 am »

The majority of cds sound like crap. A better cdp will make the majority of already crappy cds sound even more like crap. You may hear more inner crappy detail and higher crappy resolution of the already crappy cds with a more expensive cdp, but they will still sound like (you guessed it) crap. Too many poorly recorded cds is the problem. I'll bet those Ellis 1801s will REALLY bring out the flaws in crappy cds compared to the Twins.

rmihai0 · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 02:01 am »

Eric,

I have the feeling that you are right. Garbage in garbage out. A better system will just accentuate that. But, maybe, there is something out there - maybe these chinese players, or maybe if I will just add a tube output to the actual cd-player will di it better than before.

But as you said, from ones and zeros cannot be obtained music.

Maybe all this digital is jst like Borg (from Star Trek).

eric the red · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 02:23 am »

I just got done selling almost all of my gear (except my Rega Jupiter cdp) because after 25+ years and thousands and thousands of dollars into this hobby, I had finally reached audiophile high-rez nirvana and it sounded like crap. I could hear absolutely every last detail on whatever cd I was playing-EVERYTHING that was on the cd-and it all began to sound very very mechanical and very unlike enjoyable music that I remember listening to a long long time ago. Even my favorite cds sounded almost artificial and unlike music. Cds on a high rez system to me are just not very musical and I think the solution for those of us who still have 600+ cds and not an interest in vinyl is to go back to tubes. I had an all tube Audiomat Arpege integrated that wasn't the last word in Audiophile detail but after hearing what was coming out of my speakers for the last few months, I'm buying a Primaluna Prologue 2 and going back to as close to an all tube rig as possible and living with digital's limits that way. 'Perfect sound forever'-bah!

jackman · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 02:40 am »

I would wait until you have that AKSA hooked up and the speakers in place before getting the CDP. Several people have made some really good suggestions. I think Dan Wright makes some of the best sounding digital gear I have heard. I am a big fan of his mods to the Perpetual gear and I'm sure his mods to the new Denon gear is also very non-digital sounding digital.

I have a player he modded for Response Audio called the RAM. It's a heavily modded machine with tubes in the output stage, a transformer, no opamps, Bybees, star ground, lots of dampening and an LC3 clock. It sounds beautiful and his workmanship (after a peak under the hood) is first rate.

You may want to wait until you get your system together and find people in your area who have CDP's you could demo on your system. The Naim stuff sounds good but it's a type of sound that is not for everyone. The same can be said of many CDP's and DAC's. It may be difficult but I'd try to find a way to hear players on your system. It could save you a lot of swapping and stress later.

Best of luck,

Jack

Marbles · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 02:40 am »

ETR, you could do the tube thing, or better yet, you could do the tube thing AND the vinyl thing.

PS, haven't seen the LP yet......

eric the red · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 03:19 am »

I've thought hard about selling a lot of my cds and getting back into vinyl at least a modest vinyl rig so I can start buying records again. The lp will be sent as soon as the flu subsides and the Vicodin for the flu runs out so I can get out of the house for an extended period...

Marbles · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 03:23 am »

Quote from: eric the red

I've thought hard about selling a lot of my cds and getting back into vinyl at least a modest vinyl rig so I can start buying records again. The lp will be sent as soon as the flu subsides and the Vicodin for the flu runs out so I can get out of the house for an extended period...

No hurry on my account...that vicodin (chased with a beer or 6) should come first

If you want to sell your CD's, don't hesitate to list them here first.

eico1 · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 03:29 am »

Quote from: rmihai0

What I am missing from what I have delivered by my turntable and tuner:
- a REAL bass CONTINOUS extension;
- the sentiment that you can listen as loud as you like, because the CD-players used until now prrof to be harsh and agressive for my ears
- the laid back feeling, because the CD-players that I listened until now lake the transients and the dynamics confered by an analog gear.

If you are matching the volume between CD, FM and lps by ear, you will usually end up with much higher peaks from the CD due to the lower noise floor and less processing during mastering or the broadcast stage.

So, you are probably clipping your integrated, see what happens with the new amp.

steve