Helluva Shootout: Sonic Impact vs. Jadis 300B and more...

corwin99 · « **on:** 24 Jan 2005, 05:50 am »

Well, like i said i was going to let you all know my experience with pitting the little modded sonic impact against a pair of Jadis SE-300B monoblocks costing something like $16,000. Turns out i was in for more of a treat this weekend... after having dinner with my family and an old family friend, turns out he is an audiophile and runs an Avantgarde Trio powered by an ASR Emitter Integrated!! HOLY CRAP!! And he was nice enough to let me come by after dinner with my Sonic Impact and my cables and preamps to try out on his system. First lets talk about the Tannoys..

My gawd.. those Tannoy churchills are some crazy speakers. I've never really got to play around with such expensive speakers before, swapping my components in and out and testing my own cables (which was a definate bonus)... but this gave me a definate chance to really try stuff out... including the Sonic Impact that i modified.

Sonic Impact Mods:
Pure Silver 24AWG wiring from RCA and ground.
Solid CCC Copper to Speaker Jacks.
1000uF Upgraded Power Filter Cap
0.01uF Bypass Cap
Thick chunky Speaker Binding Posts,
Chunky RCA Jacks
Bypassed the Pot and a bunch of traces
Didn't have time to implement the SLA as it had not arrived yet

Pic here: http://dood.ca/sonicimpact.jpg

System:
Speakers: Tannoy Churchills
CD: Sonic Frontiers Model??? (top-loading Spiral Eye opening one!)
DAC: Sonic Frontiers DAC 3
Linestage: Sonic Frontiers SFL-2 SE and a Dynavector something or other.
Phonestage: Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 SE
Turtable: Rega P9
Cables were Nordost, Harmonic tech and my own SonoCables.

So that's what the other components in the chain were. We listened to CDs first. Listening to the Jadis, the sound was rich and engaging.. maybe slightly too warm for my tastes, but a very lush and decadent sound. We listened to some Norah Jones, some Keb Mo, Paul Simon, and other things.. just to get used to the sound of the Jadis. Overall a very rich sounding amp... and extremely refined.

So we popped the in the little modded Sonic Impact, and BLAM! the time of truth has come.. .Wow!!! I swear i saw my buddy's jaw hit the ground.. he was amazed that the little thing costed $40! (after mods maybe a bit more).. but damn! he was pretty blown away by this little thing... and was actually quite pissed off that it sounded as good as it did. But it didn't quite sound as good as the Jadis did, as least to our ears.

The Sonic Impact was markedly brighter and very obviously quicker and had better driver control.. it responded very well to the transients in the music... playing rock on the amp proved better than the Jadis in some cases... but overall the Tannoys don't seem to be the best rock speakers i've heard. The Sonic Impact didn't have the refined cleanliness of the Jadis, and we tried a few different cables to perhaps tame the sound a bit, but it didn't work so well... remember guys.. this is all with CD!

So me and my bud were thinking.. hell.. why don't we plop on some Vinyl?? So we fired up the Rega P9 and the Sonic Frontiers Phono Stage for an extra-rich sound... BLAM!!!! Talk about synergy baby!! WHOOOWEE!! I have never heard that Sonic Impact sound so darn good! Wow! I swear my buddy was blown away and said that this is the single most surprising thing he's ever seen in Audio. The SF Phono proved a bit too warm for the Jadis, almost like molasses, so the Dynavector seems the ticket, but with the Sonic, it was heaven.. just the right balance, and extremely good tone. The somewhat uncontrolled "jerkiness" of the CD playback was controlled under Vinyl. We listened mostly to Norah Jones Come away with me on Vinyl because we had the same on CD to compare with it. Also listened to Ben Harper Diamonds on the Inside.. great album, i might add.

Overall, we both agreed that this little bugger of an Amp could have been repackaged in a bit aluminum box for $5000 and most music lovers wouldn't think twice and be happy playing it... both of us felt that we could live with the sound that it was producing no problem. Though in the application they did sound slightly tipped up with CD playback.

Part 2!

Bonus... so i go by Simon's place (family friend mentioned in first paragraph)... to try out my little Sonic Impact on his Avantgarde Trios.. we didn't have a lot of time, but he didn't have a preamp, just the ASR Emitter integrated, so i brought my SonoSilence One preamp (series shunt to ground) that was wired with all silver and caddock resistors... and hooked that up to the little guy and blasted some Vivaldi on those MASSIVE (and i mean MASSIVE) horns.

My god i thought i was in heaven... those horns sound like a dream come true... but at $36,000 .. sheeze i dunno. They are 106db/w sensitive... so they pick up every little flaw with the amp... and i have to say that it held it's own to the ASR Emitter when we listened to Vivaldi on Teldec with Il Giardino. The ASR was smoother, and had better bass, but the little SI did pretty darn good... i can't believe i fluked out and got lucky enough to hear those Avantgardes at a buddy's place... out here in Nanaimo there's nothing like that..

I'm a happy guy.. plus the fact that my cables were well received by both of them made this an extremely fulfilling weekend!! hope you enjoyed my ridiculously long post

Ulas · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 06:38 am »

Corwin, nice review. I had a feeling the SI’s shortcomings would be laid bare by a loudspeaker like the Avantgarde Trio!

I have an SI on order and I am looking forward to trying it with my Trios. I have the second generation Trios that are more sensitive, 110dB, and, if you can believe it, even more revealing than the ones you heard.

corwin99 · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 07:16 am »

Ulas, thanks for the reply! That will be interesting to hear another person's experience with the Sonic Impact.. I really wish i had more time with it... Unfortunately it was midnight when we finished our meal and i couldn't take up all his time

110dB.. wowzers.

I really had an eye opener this weekend hearing those Avantgardes and even the Tannoys to an extent.. The microdynamics are phenomenal... a completely different sound than i am used to...

grkn · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 09:12 am »

I'd like to ABX unmodded sonic impact vs modded

Is ther any one mod you think made the biggest difference? (and that you would recommend).

Anyhow, it's nice to see the sonic impact performing this well. It's a really good amp, we're getting closer to wire with volume control. hehe.

gary · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 02:41 pm »

Great post... I have a couple of questions: How many hours does your amp have on it? I've never been much of a believer in break-in, but an awful lot of people are commenting that these things get better with time. Also, are you powering the amp with a wall-wart? Seems like things might get even better and smoother if you switched to a SLA battery...

Gary

mcgsxr · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 03:06 pm »

corwin99 - nice review, you certainly communicated the enthusiasm well! I am glad that you had the chance to hear some really interesting gear, and thanks for sharing.

I look forward to hearing your cables in my system, and eventually sharing that too.

Panelhead · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 05:03 pm »

I am still playing with a stock SI. My speakers are folded TQWT, that measure flat down to about 38 Hz. The drivers in it now are 10 year old Lowther PM7A, 15 ohm, and silver voice coiled. They are 100 dB efficient
My current amp is a tricked out DIY Hirage Le Monstre. It was a several month project getting it to sound great.
The SI amp sounds much different. But nice. It is still stock, but have tried four ways to power it. Standard batteries, RS 13.5 1 amp supply, 2400 amh rechargeables, and a nice 13.8 volt 1700 ma supply. All four sound different, the RS was the worst.The 2400 mah rechargeables were nice, but the 13.8 supply is the best overall. The higher voltage seems to make the little bugger more dynamic. The high power batteries make it more lush.
My next item is to wire in a 47,000 ufd Jensen four pole cap into the line inbetween the power supply and SI. The caps actually measure more like 55,000 ufd. The impedance is very low and the T network will shunt the utrasonics . Hopefully this will bring the smoothness of batteries and the slam and dynamics of active power supply.
The 13.8 supply is better sounding even with high effiecient speakers. The increased power availabe is not the issue.
In the next week two I hope to rebox the board that measures the lowest dc offset and really give the thing a chance. It most likely will not catch the Le Monstre, but already better than most amps I have listened to.
The clarity is its strongest trait. It has this clearness in spades. It is less colored than any tube amp I have tried. Any that is a bunch.

George

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 05:07 pm »

Great shootout corwin99

Unless you have extreme power conditioning already on the line that you have the wall wart of the SI plugged into, you will be shocked at the addition of the SLA battery. If you're using the 8 AA batteries, you'll also be amazed at the differences.

Tho... I'd love to be handy enough to mod my SI to your specs, as well, AND the addition of the SLA. Those with Vinnie Rossi's Clari-T amp must really be enjoying things as Sonic Impact, frow what I've read, deleted a lot of sound enhancing parts in their simplified version of the 2024 board.

corwin99 · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 05:51 pm »

Quote from: grkn

I'd like to ABX unmodded sonic impact vs modded
Is ther any one mod you think made the biggest difference? (and that you would recommend).

I only have one sonic impact at the mo, so i can't directly compare the two, however i can say that i was unimpressed with the amp until i swapped out the 330uF cap with a 1000uF one. I plan to upgrade that cap as well to a higher quality and slightly larger cap eventually as well. That change so far has made the greatest difference in sound to my ears, but i have yet to try the SLA on it.

Mark, will be getting the lot of cables out to you today.. XpressPost

should be there for you by wednesday or thursday

I wish i could get you a SonoSymphonic to try out, but it would take too long to make one of those...

I sold the one i had on hand the Tannoy guy.

ChairGuy, thanks.. When i listened to the Sonic Impact on the Tannoys, there was some serious power conditioning... I don't remember what the conditioner was, I was going to say it was a Brian Innoue conditioner but that was on the other stuff... I forget what this one was plugged into, but it was something pricey.. like all of his stuff. So that may have helped it sound better. I just plug mine into a Monster Power conditioner. Strangely, when i put 8 AA batteries into my amp there was no sound. THe LED lit up but no sound came out.. it was weird. The sound kicked in immediately when i plugged the AC Adapter in however.

Dmason · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 06:21 pm »

What a great read, Corwin!! I thought that was one of the more illustrative and entertaining reviews I have read on these threads.

A couple things come to mind; the difference between wall wart, cell, and SLA batteries was chalk and cheese. When the modded SI or especially the ClariT hook up with ultra clean and fast DC current via SLA, it is a whole other creature, whole new game. Fact. It has to be powered this way to get the full picture. This became clear to several of us recently.

The AvanteGardes, with the compression driver horn tweeter is actually designed for tube amps with far lower damping factor. A more tightly wound amp like T amps are just abit toooo high DF for that kinda set up. The fact that it sounded "good" at all is a testament to the amp.

Second, T chips need time and play to break in, not unlike many other things. Mine is still improving after two months of fairly good use.

The Tannoys are not great rock speakers, but anyone that goes to that length on speakers has likely graduated rock music to some extent. On orchestral, acoustic stuff, they are amazing.

The fact that the little buffed out $30 chip could hang out with spendy audio jewelery like the Jadis stuff, well...

Stumbling across someone with speakers like the Trios in Nanaimo seems interesting to me. And a question: are bars in Nanaimo called, "Nanaimo bars?" Do they have other words for "bathtub?"

Dmason · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 06:22 pm »

What a great read, Corwin!! I thought that was one of the more illustrative and entertaining reviews I have read on these threads.

A couple things come to mind; the difference between wall wart, cell, and SLA batteries was chalk and cheese. When the modded SI or especially the ClariT hook up with ultra clean and fast DC current via SLA, it is a whole other creature, whole new game. Fact. It has to be powered this way to get the full picture. This became clear to several of us recently.

The AvanteGardes, with the compression driver horn tweeter is actually designed for tube amps with far lower damping factor. A more tightly wound amp like T amps are just abit toooo high DF for that kinda set up. The fact that it sounded "good" at all is a testament to the amp.

Second, T chips need time and play to break in, not unlike many other things. Mine is still improving after two months of fairly good use.

The Tannoys are not great rock speakers, but anyone that goes to that length on speakers has likely graduated rock music to some extent. On orchestral, acoustic stuff, they are amazing.

The fact that the little buffed out $30 chip could hang out with spendy audio jewelrey like the Jadis stuff, well...

Stumbling across someone with speakers like the Trios in Nanaimo seems interesting to me. And a question: are bars in Nanaimo called, "Nanaimo bars?" Do they have other words for "bathtub?"

corwin99 · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 06:40 pm »

Quote from: Dmason

What a great read, Corwin!! I thought that was one of the more illustrative and entertaining reviews I have read on these threads.

A couple things come to mind; the difference between wall wart, cell, and SLA batteries was chalk and cheese. When the modded SI or especially the ClariT hook up with ultra clean and fast DC current via SLA, it is a whole other creature, whole new game. Fact. It has to be powered this way to get the full picture. This became clear to several of us recently.

The AvanteGarde ...

Thanks! I'm glad you guys are liking it.. i'm not very experienced writing reviews, so they lack the precision and exactness between albums and stuff that i see other people write.. but i tried!!

I really wanted to have the SLA ready for the shootout, but unfortunately this was not to be

I forgot to reply to Gary about the power and break-in.. I wanted to mention that yes it was powered by a 1A 12V Wall Wart... and it has probably been broken it. I was using it to power a pair of DIY Tang Band full range speakers as my computer speakers for several months... probably logging hundreds of hours on them.. but this was before i modded it. After modding it i probably logged about 20-30 hours.

Listening to rock on the Tannoys was a bit odd.. It had a ... "hollow" sound to it the sound was coming through a funnel sort of... and Elton John sounded horrible on them O_O.. mostly we listened to Jazz, and a touch of classical... i listen to classical but he mostly listens to Jazz and acoustic stuff.

Nanaimo Bars.. heh.. funny you ask about the bars here, well there was a restaurant out this way that was called "Nanaimo Bar"... cheesy, yes.. and it closed down.. it was supposed to be "Gourmet Fast Food" or something. I'm not sure i follow the bathtub thing.. is that because of the Annual Bathtub Racing thing that goes on here?

Oh yah.. and the Trios aren't in Nanaimo... and neither were the Tannoys, which is why i dont hear them more often. They were in Vancouver and Richmond respectively... i visit once a month to see the folks.

grkn · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 06:43 pm »

Mine still smells like burnt transistor..
If anyone knows where I can get my hands on one, pm

Btw, when I ran out of power with my SLA the sound -suddenly- disappeared, but as you said, the light was still on.

My guess is that when the voltage drops below 8.5A the sound is cut of.
SLA batteries also have the advantage of having higher voltage when fully charged, my 12V 7A battery is 13.2V when full

With more A I guess it won't drop as quick.

corwin99 · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 06:51 pm »

yeah.. mine smelt like burnt transistor when i plugged the polarity in reverse too. I was lucky that i burnt mine out like 4 months ago when this thing wasn't quite as hot.

I'm assuming u meant 8.5V.. hmm that's possible, i was using cheap batteries that i had kicking around. I think they were from the dollar store or something... good for remotes

that means the batteries were probably putting out closer to 1v instead of 1.5v

Maybe i shoulda tested the batteries.

Hantra · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 07:53 pm »

You guys are lucky. I have never been able to listen to the AG's. Although my company is based in Atlanta, and I am down there quite a bit, I never seem to be able to get over and listen to them. No one I know has them around here. Not that I could afford them anyway, but I would like to hear them. . .

Nice write-up C!

grkn · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 10:27 pm »

It feels good to know that there are others that are as stupid as I. Heh, that I coupled it right the first time was pure luck

So I guess I can't complain.
8.5V ofcourse, I think it's operational limits are 8.5 > 16V

RickB · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 10:56 pm »

Well, grkn, don't feel bad, I have been building a new case for my SI amp out of Purpleheart and Maple, and today hooked up 12V to make the LED light up and smoke started pouring out of the Tripath chip...bummer...

I'm setting it up to where a couple of small peices of plexiglass behind the operate/charge switch mounting will glow either green or red depending on where the switch is...well.....something went really wrong today...oh well, once SI amps are back out in circulation and available, I'll just buy a couple of 'em and get this project finished....

These little amps really do sound amazing powered by SLA batteries...I tried a 1500ma wallwart and an Astron RS-20A power supply...neither one had the refinement of the SLA....

(Original photo and web link deleted due to exceeding bandwidth limitations)

Rick

New Edit Tuesday 01/25/05 1:00PM CST:

Looks like I blew the bandwidth on that account!

Well, here's the info from Geocities, just remember, use Firefox instead of Internet Exploder, and use Adblock with FF and you wont see all those dang ads!

Mirror of "real" site:
http://geocities.com/rikblank@swbell.net/

I hope all the "free" website stuff works......if it DOES crap-out, well, there are more options......

corwin99 · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 10:56 pm »

Who you callin' stupid!

Ulas · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 10:59 pm »

Quote from: Dmason

The AvanteGardes, with the compression driver horn tweeter is actually designed for tube amps with far lower damping factor. A more tightly wound amp like T amps are just abit toooo high DF for that kinda set up. The fact that it sounded "good" at all is a testament to the amp.

Damping factor has nothing to do with it and certainly not with the tweeter. DF is primarily about controlling the woofer and all Avantgarde Trios have powered sub-woofers for everything below 100Hz. With first-order crossovers and >106dB sensitivity, Trios are probably the easiest speaker for any amplifier to drive. They are probably the most revealing and unforgiving speakers, as well.

Not long ago you were touting all manner of high sensitivity speakers, including horns and compression drivers, as the ideal pairing with the Clari-T amp.

Quote from: Dmason

I really want to hear what a zero noise, ultra fast battery DAC/Tripath amp combo can do with high sensitivity, ultra-musical speakers like Edgarhorns, Orishorns, and some vintage JBL two ways with 15" woofer rigs owned by some acquaintances, so I plan on visiting the owners of these outstanding speakers, SOON.

Quote from: Dmason

I would like to hear Clari-T with things like Reimer, Daedalus, Avantgarde, Cain$Cain Ben, where it could really strut its stuff. I feel it would in no way be out of touch with ANY of these designs.

What changed?

grkn · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 11:42 pm »

You clearly see that a trace near the bottom is burnt, and there's also one further up at the right.

But this is fixable right? If I just fix these two the SI might work?
And if fixable, what would be suitable equipment to do just that?