[JLM]

JoshK,

All those professional reviewers are succeeding in making me think that the audio glory land can be found with a server.

Oops, you slipped in more 'weird' terminology: 'MC' and 'caste' that I don't recognize.

Again, from my experience the Small Green Computer (SGC)/Roon/ethernet didn't sound significantly better than my MacBook/iTunes/10ft USB cable, so agree about relative sound quality (SQ).  Lately have been reading that some folks believe subliminal noise is what's keeping digital from sounding better, more so than increasing format resolutions.  Our PS Audio DirectStream DACs, like the Chords that share FPGA technology are noted to thrive on Redbook, which is all I've ever owned.

BTW I'm used to having a the USB cable connected to the MacBook, much prefer that to the two boxes, 3 extra cables, 9 additional lights, and money that the SGC setup required (without the recommended ultraRendu and USB to I2S converter plus power supplies for each to achieve better SQ).  Never liked the idea of using the ultraRendu and converter in that it converted ethernet to USB to I2S. 

Yeah I'm a backup nut.  Have all my MacBook music backed up on my iMac, both of which are backed up using Time Machine on external HDs, and both are further backed up on additional HDs that I keep in a safety deposit box for a total of 3 backups on site and 2 off site.  Note that my documents aren't completely duplicated on both computers, thus the separate backups.

Lots of good advice guys, thanks.

[JLM]

Spoken like a true Audiophile

I have had a couple of different  Pi players in my setup and you would be amazed the sound out of what looks like a cracker box.

If it would help I could put some wood grain on the box and spray paint the connectors a shade of Gold.

Just kidding but give a Pi a try.  It's shocking that something that costs less then one of the cables hooked to it might actually sound good.  And I have one as a back up just in case.

Alan

Have looked at the Bryston BDP-Pi, an expensive but dummy friendlier version.  Don't know if it'll do Roon or DSP and thought it was limited to 24/192.

[JLM]

Some of the playback software out there also has options for DSP such as - https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSP

Sorry Phil, hate to be difficult, but plug-ins sound complex and confusing, doubt if I could make it work without pulling out the rest of my hair.   

[JLM]

Maybe look into these: http://www.salkstream.com

Will look for professional reviews.  Never considered Jim Salk to be a server kind of resource, even though he lives 70 miles from me.

[JLM]

He’s looking for an improvement and this device looks promising 

https://youtu.be/nCoFIdPLcUk

JD

Yes, saw that, quite impressive.  While my DSJ is a streamer, Small Green Computer said sound quality would be improved with addition of another streamer (ultraRendu plus USB to I2S converter).  According to Hans the SMS200 models should be a step up from that.  But yes, don't really want to spend more and add more boxes/cables.  And again, how to do DSP?

Currently I sketched the room curve that my DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core produced (with their cheap mike, from the tiny screen) and have made "blind" adjustments using the DSP in my JBL 708Ps to compensate.  I'd have to do similar with REW or Dirac Live if I can't find a way to bring DSP into the server.

[JoshK]

Oops, you slipped in more 'weird' terminology: 'MC' and 'caste' that I don't recognize.

MC as in master of ceremony, i.e. the guy controlling the discussion.  I was using an analogy to try to convey the concept of what is going on.   Caste, I misspelled cast.  I recommend looking up a youtube video on casting.   A simple way of casting to get the idea is say you are playing a youtube video on your macbook but you are sitting on the couch in your living room and it would be nice to show that youtube video on your big screen TV instead of the 15" screen of your mac.  Well there is a button in youtube videos that let them 'cast' that video to your smart TV (your TV has to have internet via ethernet or wifi) and viola that video stopped playing on your mac and is now playing on your big screen.

The thing is you can 'cast' from other applications in other ways as well.  The same thing you can do from as I was referring to in Spotify.   Let's say you are playing in Spotify something on your Mac (let's say for the example it isn't plugged into your system via USB) and you would rather here it on your system instead of through your Mac's speakers.   Well Spotify has a cast button (it looks different but works the same) that will send that sound to your DirectStream DAC via the ethernet, because the Bridge II makes the DS a "smart dac".

[JoshK]

Yes, saw that, quite impressive.  While my DSJ is a streamer, Small Green Computer said sound quality would be improved with addition of another streamer (ultraRendu plus USB to I2S converter).  According to Hans the SMS200 models should be a step up from that.  But yes, don't really want to spend more and add more boxes/cables. 

I don't want to say bullshit, but it certainly sounds like bullshit and many more boxes to futz with, config and things to go wrong to do the exact same thing.   Seems they are grasping at straws to sell boxes to audiophiles now that DACs have their functions built in. 

[jdoyle]

Will look for professional reviews.  Never considered Jim Salk to be a server kind of resource, even though he lives 70 miles from me.

That’s a must visit if you’re that close...

[thyname]

How exactly did you connect sonicTransporter and DSD Junior? Its built in Bridge is Roon Ready, and you would be using it as a Roon Endpoint whereas sonicTransporter as a Roon Core. If you indeed used it this way, I am surprised you did not notice any difference in SQ vs. direct USB connection to your computer.

By the way, Roon is much more than playback. Its metadata management, integration of your own library and Tidal, discovery features, library management, user experience, are unparalleled.

Anyways, I am going to second the recommendation on Innuos. The new ZEN MK3 is close to your price range. And the Zen Mini with the linear power supply combo, is even cheaper, and people report it’s very close to ZEN.

 Innuos gear can be both servers and endpoints (players). Also Roon Ready, and capable of playback through Logitech Media Server (Squeezebox), via iPeng app.

I have a ZEN MK3 on my way. It should arrive in a couple of weeks

[jdoyle]

JLM, did you return the SGC?  Maybe the easiest/cheapest approach is to add the Sonore and perhaps the Uptone LPS to power it as Andrew At SGC might have suggested?

JD

[JohnR]

His DAC can be a Roon endpoint as I understand it, so why the need for yet another box?

Wait... ... it is? I missed that. I agree with JoshK, you may not need to buy hardware at all... Or at least, there are two things I would suggest you try first to see how the SQ is.

1. Run Audirvana+ on your laptop or iMac. It will (should) send audio to the DSJ over DLNA/UPnP. You can also use the A+ remote on iphone or ipad as remote control.

2. Run Roon full (server+UI) on your iMac and send audio to the DSJ. You can use the Roon UI to control it on the iMac, laptop, iphone, ipad etc.

Both the above remove iTunes and the USB interface from the equation, so there's a reasonable chance SQ will improve. Both A+ and Roon have free trials so there's no cost to try it and find out.

To add DSP functionality to Audirvana+ you need a plugin like say FabFilter Pro-Q, Roon has it built in (I'm pretty sure you can have more than 6 bands). It seems the main issue here is actually doing the measurements, so you would need to invest in some measurement hardware (e.g. http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_dayton.html + https://www.amazon.com/Focusrite-Scarlett-Audio-Interface-Tools/dp/B01E6T56EA OR  http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umik.html) and learn how to use REW.

Dirac Live is not so easy to include in that setup. If you wanted to try Dirac Live to see if it's even your cup of tea, there is:

3. Leave the Macbook connected via USB and run the Dirac Live trial on it. You will need to use a calibrated microphone though or you will get poor results. Use Audirvana+ as the player instead of iTunes.

I suppose my recommendation boils down to first trying Audirvana+ instead of iTunes, and then routing the audio over the network.

HTH

[JLM]

SGC has been returned.  It was connected to my DSJ via ethernet to unmanaged ethernet switch via ethernet to DSJ.  Unmanaged switch used so SGC (with single ethernet port) could also connect to my network via HomePage (which works very well).  Adding ultraRendu with USB to I2S converter would add $1400, 4 boxes, and more wires to reportedly improve SQ (while adding 'fishy' ethernet to USB to I2S conversions).  My server budget is ~$2000 USD.

Note that DSJ has no wireless capabilities. 

Have tried Amarra, was not significantly better to my ears than iTunes, but added sonic and operational glitches so I dumped it.  Had Roon on the SGC and again not barely different from MacBook/iTunes/10ft USB, so not interested in trying Audirvana.

iMac is connected to DSJ via a 35ft $6 toslink cable, so I consider it inferior to the 10ft ($74) USB cable. 

Roon has 'partial' DSP function (6 PEQ bands, no measurement capabilities).  Had a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core DAC, preamp, DSP that used a cheap mike and a tiny display which worked reasonably well.  SQ on the DSJ is superior, but have lost DSP function (except for 12 PEQ bands I can add on the JBL 708P monitors).

BTW there is only 3 speakers that I'd consider superior to my 708Ps and they cost 2 - 5 times as much (not in the budget).

[JLM]

How exactly did you connect sonicTransporter and DSD Junior? Its built in Bridge is Roon Ready, and you would be using it as a Roon Endpoint whereas sonicTransporter as a Roon Core. If you indeed used it this way, I am surprised you did not notice any difference in SQ vs. direct USB connection to your computer.

By the way, Roon is much more than playback. Its metadata management, integration of your own library and Tidal, discovery features, library management, user experience, are unparalleled.

Anyways, I am going to second the recommendation on Innuos. The new ZEN MK3 is close to your price range. And the Zen Mini with the linear power supply combo, is even cheaper, and people report it’s very close to ZEN.

 Innuos gear can be both servers and endpoints (players). Also Roon Ready, and capable of playback through Logitech Media Server (Squeezebox), via iPeng app.

I have a ZEN MK3 on my way. It should arrive in a couple of weeks

SGC was connected to DSJ via ethernet.  Yes SGC was a Roon Core and DSJ was the Roon endpoint.  Yes, was very disappointed that SQ wasn't improved.  Yep I explored Roon features, liked the Tidal integration, all the metadata, but adding library/Tidal favorites involved extra steps.

Please let me know how you like the Innuous Zen Mk3 and what your system is like.

[JohnR]

iMac is connected to DSJ via a 35ft $6 toslink cable, so I consider it inferior to the 10ft ($74) USB cable. 

Assuming that is a response to my suggestion, you misunderstood - your DAC has a network port on it, you can send audio to it over the network. Same thing with the Audirvana+ suggestion.

[thyname]

.... but adding library/Tidal favorites involved extra steps.

Please let me know how you like the Innuous Zen Mk3 and what your system is like.

Your Tidal favorites become automatically part of your library in Roon. No extra steps involved.

Adding your rips/ purchases to Roon is a very simple process. You just point Roon to the HDD or NAS, and wait a few minutes. Voila! I wonder if you really had the chance to use Roon at all.

As I said, my Innuos is on order. It’s the new MK3 series. Has not shipped yet

[artur9]

I had one of those and loved it.  The only reason I replaced it is because USB had lesser sound quality with my equipment than Coax/AES.

[brj]

Roon has 'partial' DSP function (6 PEQ bands, no measurement capabilities).

Roon parametric EQ supports 20 bands.  Click "Add Band" at the bottom of the window to increase the band count from the starting 6 bands.

Measurements are often best performed by dedicated applications.  Room EQ Wizard is excellent and commonly recommended. Since you're on a Mac, FuzzMeasure is another such measurement tool. 


And yes, to John's point, if you have an Ethernet cable from your router plugged into the "Bridge" port of your DirectStream Jr DAC, you don't need anything else, assuming that your MacBook is connected via WiFi to the same home network.  Roon core running on your Mac will see the DS Jr as a Roon endpoint and stream to it without issue.

[JLM]

Your Tidal favorites become automatically part of your library in Roon. No extra steps involved.

Adding your rips/ purchases to Roon is a very simple process. You just point Roon to the HDD or NAS, and wait a few minutes. Voila! I wonder if you really had the chance to use Roon at all.

As I said, my Innuos is on order. It’s the new MK3 series. Has not shipped yet

Only tried SGC/Roon for two weeks.  Did add Tidal favorites in that time, but had to do it with Tidal on my MacBook.  Yes it did automatically transfer to SGC/Roon.  However don't know how I could rip a new CD into my MacBook and have it automatically show up on SGC/Roon.  Don't know what "point Roon to the HDD or NAS" means. 

Again, please let me (us) know how you like the Innuous.

[thyname]

Only tried SGC/Roon for two weeks.  Did add Tidal favorites in that time, but had to do it with Tidal on my MacBook.  Yes it did automatically transfer to SGC/Roon.  However don't know how I could rip a new CD into my MacBook and have it automatically show up on SGC/Roon.  Don't know what "point Roon to the HDD or NAS" means. 

Again, please let me (us) know how you like the Innuous.

Hmmmm.... if you already had Tidal, and you already had favorites on Tidal, they would automatically show in your Roon once you linked your Tidal to your Roon account. I have no idea what “had to do it with Tidal on my Mac” means, and I am very confused regarding what you did.

Also, you can add Tidal albums and tracks directly from Roon, via your Roon controller, be it a tablet, smartphone, or computer. Browse or search on Tidal, then “add to library “. Easy. It’s a two way communication: Favorites on Tidal are part of your Roon library, then what you add to your Roon library via Roon, becomes favorite on Tidal.

As far as importing your own music library, such as CD rips, high resolution purchases, here is what “point Roon to hard drive or NAS” means:

https://kb.roonlabs.com/FAQ:_How_do_I_import_music%3F

Once you had “pointed” Roon to that folder, a one-time process that takes minutes, or several folders, everything you have, and will have (including new rips/ purchases) will be imported into Roon

[JLM]

Roon parametric EQ supports 20 bands.  Click "Add Band" at the bottom of the window to increase the band count from the starting 6 bands.

Measurements are often best performed by dedicated applications.  Room EQ Wizard is excellent and commonly recommended. Since you're on a Mac, FuzzMeasure is another such measurement tool. 


And yes, to John's point, if you have an Ethernet cable from your router plugged into the "Bridge" port of your DirectStream Jr DAC, you don't need anything else, assuming that your MacBook is connected via WiFi to the same home network.  Roon core running on your Mac will see the DS Jr as a Roon endpoint and stream to it without issue.

Thanks BRJ,

Although DSJ has an ethernet port a friend tells me it, "doesn’t have UPnP (universal plug and play) and a built in controller. So it requires additional equipment to read, organize, and play external hard disk content".  Never tried feeding DSJ via my network as I already have cables connected to it and considered that a better SQ option than wireless from my MacBook or iMac.  Note that feeding ethernet to DSJ requires using HomePage technology (which I have thanks to my trial of the SGC) or paying an electrician to route ethernet to my room.

Yes REW or Dirac Live are both recommended for room measurement/control (with calibrated USB microphones).  I have a friend who is also interested in this and someday we'll get together and try it.

For $500 wasn't impressed with Roon.  Yes Tidal integration with my library was good as was all the metadata, but SQ was no better to my ears than iTunes (I'm an old 'speaker guy'), and again it didn't measure the room (without adding REW 'filters' - more computer complexity).