Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article

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S Clark

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #20 on: 24 Nov 2018, 11:43 am »
These are true words, you just need to choose and match wisely. I have heard very expensive systems that sound like crap because people have not done their homework.
Our past moderator, John The Chair Guy, sang praises of the inexpensive JVC QL-F6 (with minor mods) as a $150 table and arm that hung with the big boys... and it does.  Add a used $3-400 cartridge,a Herbies mat,  a Vista preamp, and you've got a very respectable vinyl rig for well under $1K.  There are lots of ways to go to find excellence in vinyl for under $2K.

mix4fix

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #21 on: 24 Nov 2018, 05:29 pm »
Our past moderator, John The Chair Guy, sang praises of the inexpensive JVC QL-F6 (with minor mods) as a $150 table and arm that hung with the big boys... and it does.  Add a used $3-400 cartridge,a Herbies mat,  a Vista preamp, and you've got a very respectable vinyl rig for well under $1K.  There are lots of ways to go to find excellence in vinyl for under $2K.

What would be a modern version of a $1K-$2K?

S Clark

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #22 on: 24 Nov 2018, 06:37 pm »
Honestly, I don't know if there is one.  In general, new gear just doesn't offer the bang for buck of used gear.  The QL-f6 has better speed stability than the older Technics 1200 and a far superior arm.  I don't know how much better the new 1200 is, but I think it's price is at the upper end of your range.  But/ there soooo many older models that perform way above their price.  Do your due diligence looking at the upper range of Denon, JVC/Victor, Yamaha, Technics, Kenwood, Empire and lots more. Excellent tables pop up starting at around $250.   Even the highly regarded Technics SP10 MKII are available close to a thousand bucks. 
It's just been a couple of weeks that I saw this very nice table that sold for peanuts...
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160616.0

Elizabeth

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #23 on: 24 Nov 2018, 06:55 pm »
I would say old tables are great. The one problem may be old TTs that have electronic speed control. Those 20 30 year old capacitors are gonna' die soon if not already dead.
Getting them repaired may be a challenge.
The other problem with old TTs is the demand is higher than the supply recently, so the prices are kind of high.

mix4fix

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #24 on: 24 Nov 2018, 07:07 pm »
Honestly, I don't know if there is one.  In general, new gear just doesn't offer the bang for buck of used gear.  The QL-f6 has better speed stability than the older Technics 1200 and a far superior arm.  I don't know how much better the new 1200 is, but I think it's price is at the upper end of your range.  But/ there soooo many older models that perform way above their price.  Do your due diligence looking at the upper range of Denon, JVC/Victor, Yamaha, Technics, Kenwood, Empire and lots more. Excellent tables pop up starting at around $250.   Even the highly regarded Technics SP10 MKII are available close to a thousand bucks. 
It's just been a couple of weeks that I saw this very nice table that sold for peanuts...
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160616.0

Don't rub it in!

 :x

S Clark

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #25 on: 24 Nov 2018, 07:24 pm »
I would say old tables are great. The one problem may be old TTs that have electronic speed control. Those 20 30 year old capacitors are gonna' die soon if not already dead.
Getting them repaired may be a challenge.
The other problem with old TTs is the demand is higher than the supply recently, so the prices are kind of high.
This is a valid concern.  But there are plenty of options for recapping at moderate cost, and the IC chips seem to be stable if not involved in a failure cascade. 
If you pick up something like an SP-10 for a grand, or a Victor TT-81 for $600, and spend a $1-200 getting it recapped, you've got your nice and reliable TT for way cheaper than equivalent new gear. 

toocool4

Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #26 on: 24 Nov 2018, 10:39 pm »
To be honest if I was starting today, I don’t know if I would go the vintage route. I would not want to deal with the trying to get it all service and working to the best it can. If I was going to buy old / vintage I would want something simple with fewer things to go wrong, a turntable like the one I have which the motor / speed controller is completely separate from the turntable itself.

I personally would go without for a bit longer so I can save a bit more money to buy something new that is good. Vintage is hassle and most people don’t want to deal with it and all the uncertainties that goes with it, are you going to end up with a lemon that will cost you a fortune to get running or something that works with little effort and little outlay? You don’t know.


Elizabeth

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #27 on: 24 Nov 2018, 11:11 pm »
The real vintage to avoid at all costs are 'not fully working' record changers. They are complex, hard to get working once they have broken, and usually parts, particularly SPRINGS, are impossible to match if they are missing. The other really bad thing to avoid is any used TT with no counterweight. The money you saved buying it, you will spend triple (but only if very very lucky to find a replacement) for that little forgotten weight.

On the other hand...
Buying a once very expensive CD player, now 'only' a thousand dollars, or two...
Run AWAY!! Yeah you may get lucky, but 50/50 you will not be lucky. and soon own a doorstop you paid a thou for.

S Clark

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #28 on: 24 Nov 2018, 11:42 pm »


I personally would go without for a bit longer so I can save a bit more money to buy something new that is good. Vintage is hassle and most people don’t want to deal with it and all the uncertainties that goes with it, are you going to end up with a lemon that will cost you a fortune to get running or something that works with little effort and little outlay? You don’t know.


But we aren't talking about a "bit" more money.  Not everyone will put the resources into vinyl that TooCool4 has in his.  As far as that "lemon that will cost a fortune" I could replace a very high end Victor TT-81 TEN TIMES for the cost of the turntable shown above... and another  10X for the cost of the tonearm. 

Even a more modest VPI Scout is a couple of grand.   And many 1980's tables  match up very favorably to the Scout, IMHO. 
Fortunately, our hobby is big enough for value guys as well as the 1%'ers.


toocool4

Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #29 on: 25 Nov 2018, 11:14 am »
On the other hand...
Buying a once very expensive CD player, now 'only' a thousand dollars, or two...
Run AWAY!! Yeah you may get lucky, but 50/50 you will not be lucky. and soon own a doorstop you paid a thou for.

Yes I agree with you, when that laser goes it’s going to cost you a fortune to get a new one fitted.

toocool4

Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #30 on: 25 Nov 2018, 11:44 am »
But we aren't talking about a "bit" more money.  Not everyone will put the resources into vinyl that TooCool4 has in his.  As far as that "lemon that will cost a fortune" I could replace a very high end Victor TT-81 TEN TIMES for the cost of the turntable shown above... and another  10X for the cost of the tonearm. 


Going without or staying with lesser for a bit longer does make sense to me. When I bought my Acoustic Solid, I had a Roksan Xerxes I just stayed with it for longer to save more money. When I make an upgrade, I like to make a big one as incremental upgrades are a waste of money in my opinion. When I did buy the Acoustic Solid One to One, I kept my Roksan Artemiz tonearm and Roksan Shiraz cartridge for a while longer to save up for the Dynavector DV507MK-II arm and EMT JSD S 75 cartridge.

That is what I mean by waiting a bit longer, the way I saw it was the longer wait will be worth it and worth it a lot more than the instant gratification of the lesser stuff.
I know not everyone will put as much money into it like i did, but you can see what i mean. The same rational still works on a lower scale and even on a higher scale too.

mix4fix

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #31 on: 25 Nov 2018, 06:01 pm »
The real vintage to avoid at all costs are 'not fully working' record changers. They are complex, hard to get working once they have broken, and usually parts, particularly SPRINGS, are impossible to match if they are missing. The other really bad thing to avoid is any used TT with no counterweight. The money you saved buying it, you will spend triple (but only if very very lucky to find a replacement) for that little forgotten weight.

On the other hand...
Buying a once very expensive CD player, now 'only' a thousand dollars, or two...
Run AWAY!! Yeah you may get lucky, but 50/50 you will not be lucky. and soon own a doorstop you paid a thou for.

But, is it really that bad of a purchase? You buy a previously crazy expensive transport for cheap and get some use out of it. It shouldn't break because it is high end, right? I got handed a cheap Sony DVD player and it still plays. Thinking about grabbing someone's Marantz Blu-Ray and it shouldn't crap out that quick either.

If I could have grabbed that Victor, I know someone who could have fixed it for me. But, any modern transport should be at least some what reliable.

geowak

Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #32 on: 25 Nov 2018, 10:48 pm »
Many vinyl fans here who state that one does not have to spend that much money for good sound, using examples of vintage TTs. I wonder how much each person has spent on their personal vinyl rig. I mean what is the cost of your daily TT, tonearm, cartridge and phono amp. I will excuse the ones with playback systems over $50k.
Not knocking digital or vinyl fans at all, I have about $5k invested total in two digital systems, what would I expect to spend for a TT setup of reasonable or better sound?

S Clark

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #33 on: 26 Nov 2018, 01:01 am »
...
Not knocking digital or vinyl fans at all, I have about $5k invested total in two digital systems, what would I expect to spend for a TT setup of reasonable or better sound?
I"ve got two systems with three tables.

Vyger Timor w/ Jasmine motor, two arms- Pioneer P3 and Jelco 370, cartridges are Dynavector 20x2L and quintet, phono pre -Vista MC and Dodd Phono --~ $3K all things but the Dodd and the Jelco were purchased used. 

Second system-  Technics  SP10 MKii (came with a Syntec s-220 tonearm suited for a heavy mono Denon  DL102) and a JVC QL-F6 w/ Dynavector 10x5.. Phono stages are Graham Slee gold, and Vista.  All purchased used or trade except the Dynavector   Cost-~  $1350
So three turntables, 4 arms, 4 cartridges, 4 preamps  for about $3350. 

Latest project is recapping a Victor TT-81 to match with a new Jelco 750- about $1k and a damn fine rig.

If I wanted to consolidate, I could get by with the SP-10, the Pioneer arm and the Syntec arm to play stereo and mono.  I'd keep a Vista and the Dodd, the 20x2L and the Denon 102.  Cost would be around $2800... or I could play the JVC and the Dynavector 10x5 and the Vista for under $500 and be pretty happy with the sound. 
« Last Edit: 26 Nov 2018, 02:14 pm by S Clark »

OzarkTom

Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #34 on: 26 Nov 2018, 03:44 am »
But, is it really that bad of a purchase? You buy a previously crazy expensive transport for cheap and get some use out of it. It shouldn't break because it is high end, right? I got handed a cheap Sony DVD player and it still plays. Thinking about grabbing someone's Marantz Blu-Ray and it shouldn't crap out that quick either.

If I could have grabbed that Victor, I know someone who could have fixed it for me. But, any modern transport should be at least some what reliable.

I have two digital set-ups, one a Marantz Blu-Ray. The sound is not bad at all.

mix4fix

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Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #35 on: 26 Nov 2018, 06:43 am »
I have two digital set-ups, one a Marantz Blu-Ray. The sound is not bad at all.

What I was questioning was the comment of buying used expensive transports and them breaking quickly and related it to cheap ones. Not the sound of any of them.

toocool4

Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #36 on: 26 Nov 2018, 11:44 am »
What I was questioning was the comment of buying used expensive transports and them breaking quickly and related it to cheap ones. Not the sound of any of them.

That is not what Elizabeth is saying, she is saying if / when it packs up down the road it can and often cost a fortune to fix and sometimes you can’t get it  fixed hence you end up with a very expensive doorstop.

OzarkTom

Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #37 on: 26 Nov 2018, 01:09 pm »
I only bought the cheaper Marantz players that now sells for $200 or less on Ebay, no $2000 units.

twitch54

Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #38 on: 26 Nov 2018, 03:09 pm »
Many vinyl fans here who state that one does not have to spend that much money for good sound, using examples of vintage TTs. I wonder how much each person has spent on their personal vinyl rig. I mean what is the cost of your daily TT, tonearm, cartridge and phono amp. I will excuse the ones with playback systems over $50k.
Not knocking digital or vinyl fans at all, I have about $5k invested total in two digital systems, what would I expect to spend for a TT setup of reasonable or better sound?

I know nothing about your digital set up but IMO if one wants to do analog (starting from scratch today makes zero sense IMO) you need....
TT/arm, cart, cabling, phono-pre, RCM / cleaning gear. All that (new), 2-3k min. , realistically double that or more IMO.

toocool4

Re: Vinyl vs Digital Thread Number 603- an interesting article
« Reply #39 on: 26 Nov 2018, 03:43 pm »
twitch54 you can do it for far less than that.

I do kind of agree with you about starting from scratch today, why would you bother but saying that it’s far easier with record players than a tape deck or a Reel to reel player. At least with records, you can still get new records / record players. With tape decks and reel to reel, good luck.