Power cables

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JerryLove

Re: Power cables
« Reply #60 on: 25 Dec 2018, 06:48 am »
2.    From your experience or just a guess?
Three source. 1) my experience 2) my understanding of electricity 3) what data I can find.

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3.    Not true.  There are many blind and double blind test out there where 10 of 10 is commonplace.
Can you point me at some rigorously run ones? The one's I've been involved in haven't managed to break away from random chance.

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4.    Not true.  There are plenty of reasons that the should and do.  There is more than inductance, capacitance and resistance at work in properly designed cabling.
What is the theory on which you are basing this? What do you believe to be happening?

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5.    Logic without all of the facts is simply opinion.
I'd disagree. Logic will always be logic. It's a path. Facts are an origin. Logic without facts cannot get started... but it would still be logic.

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Not trying to invite flames or arguments.  I’ve just been involved in too many double blind tests where cables of all types are identifiable every swap.  That and having 40 years in cable design.   :eyebrows:
I would't call your post flame baiting at all :). It does beg some serious questions though.

We are specifically discussing power cables at the moment, yes? Do you have a general background in EE? Can we get into how the amp's power supply holds and discharges capacitance and the role that plays in isolating power on either side of the supply (assuming the theory you propose for this behavior makes that discussion appropriate)?

I mean: the proof is almost always in the pudding; so the DB tests would trump most everything; but without a shared supposition on the outcome of those (your statement and mine are in apparently irreconcilable conflict); we'd either need to conduct one together with a third party, or we are going to be forced to stay in the hypothetical.

sonicxtc

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #61 on: 25 Dec 2018, 02:34 pm »
I see this thread got a bit sidetracked. It's sad that almost every time the subject of power cords "making a substantive improvement in sound quality" is stated in a thread, someone comes along to derail the subject by emphatically indicating power cords cannot possibly make a difference. :argue: That's why I rarely post on the subject, but I'm trying to be helpful to those seeking greater fidelity just as I've been guided by some magnanimous audiophiles on AC to whom I'm grateful:beer: I truly wish the mods would sometimes intervene to remove all the sidetracking as many people likely tune out and leave the thread.  :banana piano:

BACK TO POWER CORDS and germane content...

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It seems to create a darker background overall, akin to having greater contrast and black levels on a video display. I can't really say if the music or vocals THEMSELVES sound better, it's more like they are better able to be presented because the backdrop is cleaned up a bit. Not sure if that makes any sense

Yes, yes and yes. Without reservation, based on my experience, a good power cord "sounds like" it is doing exactly that: it presents a clearer cleaner background against which greater details can be heard. And, in general, a good wire of any kind seems to provide that. The litmus test: does it sound clearer and provide more detail without sounding etched, glaring or tipped-up in the highs? Also, a great power cord can really bring out deep bass without any boominess.

I hope this thread can stay on track. Good luck to all who are searching.

Letitroll98

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #62 on: 25 Dec 2018, 03:02 pm »
]It's sad that almost every time the subject of power cords "making a substantive improvement in sound quality" is stated in a thread, someone comes along to derail the subject by emphatically indicating power cords cannot possibly make a difference.  I truly wish the mods would sometimes intervene to remove all the sidetracking as many people likely tune out and leave the thread.

Thanks for your thoughts sonicxtc, the member in question is now on restricted status and won't be posting in this thread any longer.   I'm totally fine with members posting that they've tried and can't hear any changes, Tom Bambaldil's post would be a fine example.  But we won't be humoring those throw down the gauntlet posts who's only propose is to start arguements.

avahifi

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #63 on: 26 Dec 2018, 08:04 pm »
Speaking of higher quality power cables.  The practice appears to be spreading.

https://www.evchargeking.com/en/tesla-charging-cables

Frank

toocool4

Re: Power cables
« Reply #64 on: 26 Dec 2018, 10:35 pm »
I truly wish the mods would sometimes intervene to remove all the sidetracking as many people likely tune out and leave the thread.

To be honest it’s freedom of speech, the guy just went about it in the wrong way. You can’t just shut people out, because you don’t like what they are saying or their views does not align with yours.
I have tried plenty of power cables and I have friends that have spend hundreds of pounds on power cables, for me I find it inconclusive and not night and day hence I don’t spend my money on it. Instead I have spent my money on a regenerative power conditioner, which to me is night and day. I don’t laugh at people or friends that have spend hundreds of pounds on power cables, everyone can spend their money on what they feel makes a difference to their system.

Letitroll98

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #65 on: 26 Dec 2018, 10:59 pm »
Absolutely correct toocool4, we encourage all members to post their opinions and experiences, your post is an excellent example of how to do it.  But everyone knows what the divisive posts are, an appeal to authority followed by thinly veiled insults to responses.  We can do both, not put up with trolling and encourage the free expression of ideas.

kernelbob

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #66 on: 27 Dec 2018, 02:35 am »
I did submit one post to this thread already, but I want to relate an experience when I first installed the power cord that I referenced in my post.  At the time, I was using a well known brand of power cord that listed for over $1k.  While music was still playing, I powered off each of the two monoblock amps that I was using, so no sound was being produced by my speakers.  I disconnected each power cord from the amps and replaced them with the new one. 

I walked up to the left power amp and switched it on.  The music resumed from that left speaker.  Immediately, before even turning on the right amp or returning to the normal listening position, the change in the sound was so much more realistic that found myself saying "holy $#!+".  The improvement was that dramatic and obvious.  That degree of difference didn't require blind A/B switching to detect, nor was it related to a difference in volume level.  Since then, others (both audiophiles and casual observers) have heard the same difference and can consistently identify which power cord is being used just from the sound of the music.

Best,
Robert

DaveC113

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #67 on: 27 Dec 2018, 04:19 am »
I did submit one post to this thread already, but I want to relate an experience when I first installed the power cord that I referenced in my post.  At the time, I was using a well known brand of power cord that listed for over $1k.  While music was still playing, I powered off each of the two monoblock amps that I was using, so no sound was being produced by my speakers.  I disconnected each power cord from the amps and replaced them with the new one. 

I walked up to the left power amp and switched it on.  The music resumed from that left speaker.  Immediately, before even turning on the right amp or returning to the normal listening position, the change in the sound was so much more realistic that found myself saying "holy $#!+".  The improvement was that dramatic and obvious.  That degree of difference didn't require blind A/B switching to detect, nor was it related to a difference in volume level.  Since then, others (both audiophiles and casual observers) have heard the same difference and can consistently identify which power cord is being used just from the sound of the music.

Best,
Robert


Yup, people have to keep in mind cables can sound very similar or near identical to one another too. So if you change out a cable and it doesn't sound different that's just one tiny piece of data that means nothing on it's own. I have heard many power cables that sound similar to one another and some that are very different. Some components react very strongly to changing power cables while others are affected much less. And just like anything else, sometimes more expensive cables are better (up to a point), so if you haven't tried cables at the high end of the spectrum you can't make blanket statements about cables in general. I think it's human nature to want to form opinions and beliefs, but we often do so based on too little evidence and/or faulty logic. Nobody is completely immune.   

Cheytak.408

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #68 on: 27 Dec 2018, 06:50 am »
Absolutely correct toocool4, we encourage all members to post their opinions and experiences, your post is an excellent example of how to do it.  But everyone knows what the divisive posts are, an appeal to authority followed by thinly veiled insults to responses.  We can do both, not put up with trolling and encourage the free expression of ideas.
I apologize for taking the bait.  I know better, but when I see people that have obviously not tried what they bash I do my head shaking in public too often.

My bad  :?

Elizabeth

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #69 on: 27 Dec 2018, 10:51 pm »
After adding all one kind of pwercord to my system, I finally decided to rearrange the rack to remove a Sony SCD777ES I never use anymore and substitute a second cheap five disk changer I bought which has a SPDIF coax out. (so I can use it with my Marantz Sa-10, same way I use another with Toslink out.
Now I decided to check out if the new to me used changer works well. So I plugged it in with it's original captive AC cord. Right off I can hear the cord's veil settling over the sound.
Over the weekend I will perhaps see if I can rewire it internally with better AC wire, and definitely add an IEC plug.
If the internal AC new wire helps. I may do the other one with the Toslink. As it is, all I did was cut off the captive cord at the back and add the IEC. Even though the wire in it is 26 years old.
(I a way way too lazy to cut the IEC hole into the chassis.)

And if you ask could a cheap five disc changer to the Marantz SA-10 be better than the classic Sony SCD777ES? Yup. way better. way way better. And the bonus of not waiting for a day for the Sony to load. (yes exaggeration.. but not by a lot! (it is also true the Marantz disc drive tray is slow to open after you push the open button... But otherwise OK.)

Mark Korda

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #70 on: 28 Dec 2018, 05:36 pm »
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a437511.pdf    I think FullRangeMan had the best idea with the tightness or tautness of the connection being the most important thing. Gold is a soft metal.There is a picture of gold plating taken with a microscope in the site I included. It looks like the White Mountain range in N.H. It's not that gleaming gold you see with your bare eye.
   If you use pressure (tightness) like a speaker terminal you can screw tight you will increase the area of electron flow by mashing the 2 metals together. Imagine 2 sheets of sandpaper lying face to face on top of each other. Press down on one and its harder to move because the roughness or grit becomes more interlocked. Now think of an RCA jack and the way it contacts a jack. Better than pressure would be soldering.
   You can argue your mega priced cables but the ones that let the most electrons through would seem to me to be the better ones. Maybe that's a measurement we need.....take care...Mark Korda







   

RDavidson

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #71 on: 28 Dec 2018, 05:52 pm »
Tightness of connection can be important when the consistency of the connection isn't there. Take Furutech outlets for instance. They don't have a lot of clamping force, but that's because they're designed for more consistent surface to surface contact (that isn't reliant on clamping force). So if you're using precision machined Furutech connectors with a Furutech outlet, you're getting the benefits of the connection system as intended. But as many (most) don't use connectors and outlets from the same manufacturer, then I think clamping force is about the only way to get adequate contact.
« Last Edit: 29 Dec 2018, 08:51 pm by RDavidson »

DaveC113

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #72 on: 28 Dec 2018, 07:10 pm »
There's large differences in plating quality.

Also, if you use "hospital grade" receptacles you're not using the plating anyways as the outlets will gouge right through any plating. They will also leave gouges in the base metal. Furutech receptacles are designed to play nice with plated plugs, with others ymmv.

Elizabeth

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #73 on: 28 Dec 2018, 07:24 pm »
The contact enhancers work by filling in the gaps in the microscopic mountains!
I stick to Caig Gold.
i Fully agree standard duplex eat the gold plated plug blades for lunch. Every insert leave a new mark in the blades.
I now use Furutech duplex and they never leave any marks on plug blades. I have six Furutech plugs, the rest are Pangea power cords. The Pangea XL cords use pure copper metal in the plugs. Which I find to be synergistic with the Furutech duplex.
I do polish the blades before use. And clean the IEC innards.

Mark Korda

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #74 on: 28 Dec 2018, 10:14 pm »
Hi, great answers! I'll check those out.......Mark Korda

Mark Korda

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #75 on: 28 Dec 2018, 11:57 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qovss40Cnog&list=PLq3R9BdLakE1LKgutNlBZQWFcP-3KdSvy Elizabeth, I have that DeOxit kit of 2 tubes I bought a long time ago. The instructions scared me away and I never really opened it. I saw this about WD-40. Don't let the guys voice put you to sleep....what do you and anyone else think?.....Mark K......

twitch54

Re: Power cables
« Reply #76 on: 29 Dec 2018, 01:32 pm »
Mark, you're right , what a voice ! anyways , he pointed out , several times that using small amounts of WD40 was the key. As a lubricant though, when used liberally it can wreck havoc on plastic. Spray silicone is much more benign

OzarkTom

Re: Power cables
« Reply #77 on: 29 Dec 2018, 07:26 pm »
Yeah. Most non-hobbyists don't understand why audio things cost so much nor why one would spend that much. I think it's often just a matter of exposure. Once one hears music they truly love reproduced on a nice system, it's not as hard for them to get their head around the cost...even if they still may not completely agree with it.

My wife believes it all sounds the same. :duh:

dflee

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Re: Power cables
« Reply #78 on: 29 Dec 2018, 07:29 pm »
My wife wants me to believe it all sounds the same.

Don

twitch54

Re: Power cables
« Reply #79 on: 29 Dec 2018, 09:24 pm »
My wife believes it all sounds the same. :duh:

women usually are smarter ..........