Ethan Winer Null Test

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nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #40 on: 16 Nov 2018, 08:08 pm »
If your system isn't resolving enough reasonably priced or high priced cables are just throwing lipstick on a pig. As you build your system to a level of great resolution think of the cabling as the icing on the cake. They will be much more noticeable and will bring out the best in your system. That's just been my experience.

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #41 on: 16 Nov 2018, 08:10 pm »
Wow this is just opposite of my experience.  :scratch: :scratch:

I can only speak for my own system, but IME the law of diminishing returns sets in pretty fast, once you get past a certain level of quality.  For cables just like anything else.  Even more odd?  I also find that as the rest of my system has improved, the less overall effect cables seem to have.  I know, weird, right?

Tyson

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #42 on: 16 Nov 2018, 08:21 pm »
Wow this is just opposite of my experience.  :scratch: :scratch:


Well, to be fair, I've already rewired almost all of my components with better wire, including my speakers.  And upgraded all of the caps in the signal path.  Usually to Jupiter Copper caps.  Speaker wire its the Chela wire from VH Audio which uses a pretty cool foamed teflon dielectric.  I used to have fancier interconnects with very nice wire and very nice connectors I built myself.  But recently I switched to Blue Jeans cables to try out some fully shielded cables (I was chasing down some noise in my system).  Shockingly the BJ cables sounded just as good as my high end cables.  I've also tried out a few other high end cables in my system over the past few decades, none of which were as good as the ones I'd built myself a couple years ago.  So I'm left to conclude that either the BJ cables way overperform vs their price, or that my other cables just weren't that good, or that the differences between cables is actually not all that large.  Or some combo of those 3, most likely :lol:

brj

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #43 on: 16 Nov 2018, 10:05 pm »
It's unfortunate that Ethan chose cables as his example for demonstrating the technique, as that (unsurprisingly) took the focus away from the test itself in very short order.  Probably better to have compared 2 pre-amps or something else.

The theory of the null test seems reasonable, though implementing it in a manner that doesn't otherwise impact the system and mask differences does seem challenging.  (Steve's comments address this fairly well.)

DaveC113

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #44 on: 16 Nov 2018, 11:22 pm »
Tyson, i posted because IME your results are atypical, or you simply haven't tried cables that are good enough to make a big difference. I think that's likely the case if a basic coax IC cable is your standard. My point is, if you haven't tried a variety of high end cables how can you know? How can you make definitive statements about what kind of differences they can make or where the point of diminishing returns are? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it really seems you don't have the experience to make such statements.

One point of reference we can share is Jupiter copper caps vs say a Solen MKP cap. Big difference in many applications, an IC cable can make even more of a difference in many systems.

I've built my entire system from source to speaker driver, rebuilt and redesigned my SET amp several times to improve it and also have experience with many of other folks' systems and I'd agree with nc42acc that in most cases as the system gets better cables are just that much more critical.

rollo, it's been A LONG TIME since we impedance matched components like you're talking about. Like early 600 ohm telephone systems.... lol... I know some cable manufacturers want us to think a cable must be an impedance correction device but this is simply not true. These days output impedances are simply very low vs input impedances. No match necessary. However, there can be issues with poorly designed output devices just like anything else.

Also, you can easily have 2 cables with the exact same LCR that sound nothing alike, even using the exact same signal wire. Here's one thing to think about... capacitance caused by shielding sounds much different vs the capacitance caused by a star quad design. A possible explanation may have something to do with the EM fields and how they are effected by a star quad vs a shield. It would be great if things were so simple but LCR is just a starting point for making sure a cable will function as intended.


Cheytak.408

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #45 on: 17 Nov 2018, 06:02 am »
Yup, this is exactly what Deulund does. If you try out their silver wire with silk/oil insulation you'd be shocked at how much of a difference it makes. Cables are much more complicated than simple LCR values.
I’m not shocked. 

Ignoring all of the various aspects of insulated wire is what I find shocking!   :duh:

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #46 on: 17 Nov 2018, 06:09 pm »
Nothing like a good cable debate to get the blood circulating.  :popcorn:

twitch54

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #47 on: 17 Nov 2018, 09:00 pm »
Nothing like a good cable debate to get the blood circulating.  :popcorn:

LOL, sad but true....... all good fun !

Letitroll98

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #48 on: 18 Nov 2018, 04:21 pm »
Read this now.

From the guidelines:

NO DBT DEBATE this does not exclude the use of dbt for listening comparison, but any "debate" will automatically be trashed.

This also covers ABX as well.  Thanks for you cooperation in ending any debate immediately.

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #49 on: 19 Nov 2018, 06:17 pm »
Just like all other cable debates from the past and I am sure many more in the future. It is just an audio hobby for goodness sake.  :duh:

FullRangeMan

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #50 on: 19 Nov 2018, 06:32 pm »
Just like all other cable debates from the past and I am sure many more in the future. It is just an audio hobby for goodness sake.  :duh:
+1
Its great to see our AC member Ethan deep in audio stuff.
I have lost about 30 years of my life chasing top equip by following the HP motto:
The absolute sound is the live music.

And recently discovered what makes an audiophile happy is a nice beautiful sound played in his living room which is all personal taste and room acoustics.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #51 on: 19 Nov 2018, 06:34 pm »
Double Post. please delete;
« Last Edit: 19 Nov 2018, 10:15 pm by FullRangeMan »

adminRH

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #52 on: 19 Nov 2018, 09:48 pm »
Cleaned up and restored as requested by facilitator.

Steve

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #53 on: 19 Nov 2018, 09:54 pm »
After a question/comment or two, I did get somewhat complicated in my explanations in post #32.
Some of the points are difficult to explain. Let's look at just one of the points I previously posted
and hopefully I will be able to simplify and clearly explain.

When one nulls, there is going to be some cancellation of every part of the music, dynamics,
frequency response differences, inner detail of all types etc etc.

Now suppose there is a difference in amplitude of inner detail X between cables A and B. Some of that inner detail
X is going to cancel out by nulling. Some of inner detail X will be left (residue).

However, if residue X is not perceived, we have a problem. The problem lies in the
fact that the null tester leads us to believe there is no cable/component difference. However, when the music and
inner detail X are returned to normal volume (no nulling), a sonic difference is again perceived.

The "null tester" gave us a false idea/claim that the cables/components A and B were the same, when in fact
there is a difference in musical information between cables/components A and B. The "null tester" could only
tell us that inner detail X was buried in the noise, not that A and B cables/components were different sonically.

This is just one reason why I cannot call the "null tester" accurate. My other points also add weight
to the problems of the null tester. I wish I could have brought better news, but science is science.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: 20 Nov 2018, 03:45 am by Steve »

Letitroll98

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #54 on: 21 Nov 2018, 12:09 pm »
Cleaned up and restored as requested by facilitator.

Thanks so much for your continued efforts.

timind

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #55 on: 21 Nov 2018, 12:42 pm »
After a question/comment or two, I did get somewhat complicated in my explanations in post #32.
Some of the points are difficult to explain. Let's look at just one of the points I previously posted
and hopefully I will be able to simplify and clearly explain.

When one nulls, there is going to be some cancellation of every part of the music, dynamics,
frequency response differences, inner detail of all types etc etc.

Now suppose there is a difference in amplitude of inner detail X between cables A and B. Some of that inner detail
X is going to cancel out by nulling. Some of inner detail X will be left (residue).

However, if residue X is not perceived, we have a problem. The problem lies in the
fact that the null tester leads us to believe there is no cable/component difference. However, when the music and
inner detail X are returned to normal volume (no nulling), a sonic difference is again perceived.

The "null tester" gave us a false idea/claim that the cables/components A and B were the same, when in fact
there is a difference in musical information between cables/components A and B. The "null tester" could only
tell us that inner detail X was buried in the noise, not that A and B cables/components were different sonically.

This is just one reason why I cannot call the "null tester" accurate. My other points also add weight
to the problems of the null tester. I wish I could have brought better news, but science is science.

cheers

steve

Sorry Steve, your post cleared up nothing for me. It led me to believe one of us has no idea what the null test is all about. And I'm certain I understand it. Please try again.

avahifi

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #56 on: 21 Nov 2018, 03:33 pm »
Years ago Hafler built an amplifier, the XL 280 that they claimed passed a null test from 20 to 20K Hz.

Our investigation showed that they had added a trimpot that flattened the frequency response at the very high end of its range.  However they did this by providing a bit of feed forward compensation that made the measured high end appear flat while adding a significant very high frequency resonate peak centered around 40K Hz.

This made the amp susceptable to out of band HF garbage such as cartridge mis-tracking, out of band distortion products from equipment ahead in the chain, etc.  The results was a unit that measured really good but sounded bright.

Passing a null test only measured in the audio range is not a useful criteria for perfect performance.

Frank

PDR

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #57 on: 21 Nov 2018, 03:34 pm »
The "null tester" gave us a false idea/claim that the cables/components A and B were the same, when in fact
there is a difference in musical information between cables/components A and B. The "null tester" could only
tell us that inner detail X was buried in the noise, not that A and B cables/components were different sonically.

Ok....."Fact".......from wiki:

A fact is something that is consistent with objective reality or that can be proven with evidence. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability — that is whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts.

Got any of that proven with evidence stuff?
I'll leave it to you to look up conjecture on your own....

Steve

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #58 on: 21 Nov 2018, 05:42 pm »
Ok....."Fact".......from wiki:

A fact is something that is consistent with objective reality or that can be proven with evidence. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability — that is whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts.


Please re read my previous post to learn what "fact" was actually referring to.
The "null tester" will not prove no sonic difference exists between components/cables or
anything else. My previous posts explains why not with more reasons as well.

A very simple first semester electronics experiment with two tones
with the same frequency, or just slightly different, but with different amplitudes, and
nulled into noise will easily demonstrate such. You may not hear it, but the difference
is a "fact" since I set them at different amplitudes to begin the experiment.

Ear sensitivity is also important, as the below graph clearly shows how
the "ear's" sensitive is quite different at different frequencies.
 



Sorry, I saw a better graph and used it.

Cheers and happy Thanksgiving.

steve
« Last Edit: 22 Nov 2018, 11:27 pm by Steve »

Steve

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #59 on: 21 Nov 2018, 05:52 pm »
Sorry Steve, your post cleared up nothing for me. It led me to believe one of us has no idea what the null test is all about. And I'm certain I understand it. Please try again.

Please re read my previous posts again until you do understand, and read #58 as well timind.

cheers and happy Thanksgiving.

steve
« Last Edit: 21 Nov 2018, 09:33 pm by Steve »