Ethan Winer Null Test

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PDR

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #20 on: 13 Nov 2018, 04:18 pm »
I only know what I hear......

Yes, some people want to know why, some just accept. if you dont care.....fair enuff.

Goosepond

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #21 on: 13 Nov 2018, 04:46 pm »
I suggest you don't know what you hear. You only interpret what you hear! And what you interpret depends on things like time of day, mood, etc.

Huh, huh, huh???  :thumb:

Gene

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #22 on: 13 Nov 2018, 05:11 pm »
I have interpreted that when I added the JPS Labs cables the enjoyment factor listening to my system went up exponentially. I say the investment was well worth it and I don't have to get a headache trying to research the hows and whys.

I suggest you don't know what you hear. You only interpret what you hear! And what you interpret depends on things like time of day, mood, etc.

Huh, huh, huh???  :thumb:

Gene

avahifi

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #23 on: 13 Nov 2018, 05:20 pm »
Of course one can hear the difference between interconnects and/or speaker cables if they are designed with substantially different inductance, capacitance, resistance, and shielding characteristics.  It also depends on how well the amp, preamp, and/or source output circuits deal with difficult loads.

My issue is that many audiophiles would rather accept the notion that the differences are magic (usually expensive magic) rather than looking for real world explanations.

I would like to see Nathen perform his null tests with higher capacitive cables and with less capable output circuits driving them, and use 10K Hz square waves as a source.  I suspect that then he won’t be able to get a null.

We are not certain of just what the musical signal from your source actually is, but understand that it contains the music along with all distortion generated by the source and all amplifying ciircuits downstream.  Therefore the audio circuits must be designed to deal with all out of band garbage thrown at it, such as cartridge mistracking, poorly filtered digital datastreans, RFI noise, AC power deviations, and more. Flat 20Hz to 20KHz response and very low distortion measured within this range is certainly not an adequate badge of merit.

Therefore I suggest that the better the electronics design reallly is, the less difference varying brands and types of cables will make.

Regarding differences between plug in power cords, I am clueless.   :cry:

Frank

PS:  I was only referring to interconnect shielding, not speaker wires.  However you can do a good job of protecting standard two conductor speaker wires from radio stations by chucking the end in an electric drill and giving them about 3 twists per foot.


Letitroll98

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #24 on: 13 Nov 2018, 05:28 pm »
I've always found the majority of audiophiles that believe in uber expensive cabling have little to no engineering or scientific background yet feel their hearing is the end all.

This is the crux of the problem, assigning opinions that have no basis in fact.  Price has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the findings of audiophiles that hear differences in cables.  Especially with the catholic purchasing options we have today, price has only a casual relationship to sound quality.  Yet continually this poor old horse of expensive cables and audiophools being separated from their money is brought out and beaten mercilessly in an attempt to insult those with different experiences.  I've continually railed against the old dinosaurs of the audio cable industry charging exorbitant prices for products that can't possibly cost but a tiny fraction of the retail price to manufacture, but there aren't very many audiophiles purchasing these products, most of the posts on this circle are where can I get a good cable on a budget.   

Which is what I envision a cable circle on this site to be.  "Hey guys, I found this fabulous cable at a steal", "What's the best way to balance capacitance and resistance for ICs?", and so forth.  Therefore I look at all posts that seek to instigate another cable debate with a jaundiced eye.  Yes, the op about Winer's null test has an educational component, and also contains a dog whistle that engenders posts like those quoted here.  I'm sure twitch54 meant no harm in his post, but for the reasons listed I'll be watching this thread very closely. 

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #25 on: 13 Nov 2018, 05:34 pm »
Just as a background on my audio cable history.  Until I met a few knuckleheads here on AC I have been building my own cables. I have used exotic Belden wire that I assume is made for the aerospace industry. Surplus silver, copper and teflon off Ebay that was probably stripped out of a military war machine. I have used bulk cables from Neotech, Furutech, Canare and others. I get enjoyment out of hearing the differences they make in my system and will probably keep building cables to compare to my JPS Labs cables. I really don't care why it sounds different I just know they do sound different. And a big thanks to those two knuckleheads who put me on the JPS train. Best investment so far.

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #26 on: 13 Nov 2018, 05:36 pm »
I am so glad I bought my uber expensive JPS cables used or my wallet would be super thin and the kids would have no shoes and I would need to take the dog to the shelter. I once thought like you regarding cables but I have seen the light and it sounds really good too.

This is the crux of the problem, assigning opinions that have no basis in fact.  Price has absolutely nothing whatsoever with to due with the findings of audiophiles that hear differences in cables.  Especially with the catholic purchasing options we have today, price has only a casual relationship to sound quality.  Yet continually this poor old horse of expensive cables and audiophools being separated from their money is brought out and beaten mercilessly in an attempt to insult those with different experiences.  I've continually railed against the old dinosaurs of the audio cable industry charging exorbitant prices for products that can't possibly cost but a tiny fraction of the retail price to manufacture, but there aren't very many audiophiles purchasing these products, most of the posts on this circle are where can I get a good cable on a budget.   

Which is what I envision a cable circle on this site to be.  "Hey guys, I found this fabulous cable at a steal", "What's the best way to balance capacitance and resistance for ICs?", and so forth.  Therefore I look at all posts that seek to instigate another cable debate with a jaundiced eye.  Yes, the op about Winer's null test has an educational component, and also contains a dog whistle that engenders posts like those quoted here.  I'm sure twitch54 meant no harm in his post, but for the reasons listed I'll be watching this thread very closely.

PDR

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #27 on: 13 Nov 2018, 09:20 pm »
Well, there you go.....you bought used, no wonder they sound good, prob had the required
10,000 hr burn in already...... :thumb:

twitch54

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #28 on: 13 Nov 2018, 10:29 pm »
This is the crux of the problem, assigning opinions that have no basis in fact.  Price has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the findings of audiophiles that hear differences in cables.  Especially with the catholic purchasing options we have today, price has only a casual relationship to sound quality.  Yet continually this poor old horse of expensive cables and audiophools being separated from their money is brought out and beaten mercilessly in an attempt to insult those with different experiences.  I've continually railed against the old dinosaurs of the audio cable industry charging exorbitant prices for products that can't possibly cost but a tiny fraction of the retail price to manufacture, but there aren't very many audiophiles purchasing these products, most of the posts on this circle are where can I get a good cable on a budget.   

Which is what I envision a cable circle on this site to be.  "Hey guys, I found this fabulous cable at a steal", "What's the best way to balance capacitance and resistance for ICs?", and so forth.  Therefore I look at all posts that seek to instigate another cable debate with a jaundiced eye.  Yes, the op about Winer's null test has an educational component, and also contains a dog whistle that engenders posts like those quoted here.  I'm sure twitch54 meant no harm in his post, but for the reasons listed I'll be watching this thread very closely.

we are in total agreement as I am with Franks statement / comment as it relates to capacitance, inductance and resistance.

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #29 on: 14 Nov 2018, 01:37 am »
Even a cable snob needs to be frugal at times.  :lol:

Well, there you go.....you bought used, no wonder they sound good, prob had the required
10,000 hr burn in already...... :thumb:

timind

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #30 on: 14 Nov 2018, 01:07 pm »
I did some moving around and the only speaker cables I have on hand that worked in the current configuration is an old set of Monster cables. I can relax now and enjoy the music knowing they are just fine. Now, what to do with the expensive cables in the closet?

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #31 on: 14 Nov 2018, 02:31 pm »
I know in the back of your mind as you listen you are thinking how much better my system will sound if I only had $20,000 speaker cables.  :icon_lol:

I did some moving around and the only speaker cables I have on hand that worked in the current configuration is an old set of Monster cables. I can relax now and enjoy the music knowing they are just fine. Now, what to do with the expensive cables in the closet?

Steve

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #32 on: 16 Nov 2018, 12:37 am »
https://www.jandrpc.com/Quantum%20Tunnel%20of%20Love.htm

I guess Physics, Chemistry is involved, not surprising since a musical signal/current occurs at the atomic level.

What the author explains occurs and is dealt with in other areas, such as steel production, car manufacturers,
so obviously applies to electronics. So more than just resistance (which is different), capacitance, and inductance.

With wire and resistors designers and manufacturers have to consider rough surfaces, and internal boundaries due to impurities. Both create eddy currents and noise. A stream analogy is that of fast moving water with rocks in the middle and at the banks.

Mating different materials, plugs, jacks etc, is similar to junctions, etc. Galvanation, rectification effects, thermal coupling can and do occur. His video doesn't cover such.

The comment about diodes in ics is puzzling. If diodes are placed in series, then we have the junction barrier to overcome, so large distortion. If in parallel, then a simple 2 volt p-p signal will be clipped. If a resistor in series with the diodes, what good is that? If a zener diode, or back to back zeners are used, then nothing happens until the zener(s) breaks down and clips the signal. I would sure like to know what brand interconnect cables (ics) have diodes incorporated.

By the way, the limited frequency graph response at +50 and +80db manipulates the rise time
 (layman might call it “speed”) by manipulating the frequency response (FR). So the original signal is
altered, and some low level information is lost due to filtering (just like a power supply supply filters).
Might also consider the quality of the parts used.

We all know that different model/manufacturers components sound different. One may allow more
small signal inner detail to pass than another component which is masking low level information.
For instance, slightly bass heavy would cause such a condition.

Yet both have the same specs. As an example, +/- 0,1db from 20-20khz means a deviation can occur
in the range of only 54db down from the fundamental. That is easily perceivable. The question is,
how do we know his "null tester" is not masking low level signal information, and is truly transparent?
We don't.

How does the "null tester" cancel "smearing" of a signal, depth, just small signals etc., all of
which involve moderate to extremely low level signals? (This assumes that no masking is
occurring.) First, if smearing is not cancelled, what are you actually going to perceive but
nonsense, noise. Combining it with the fundamental, it will compliment the fundamental again.

Another issue, if the moderate to low level musical information is canceled beyond perception
with just 10db to 40db of cancellation, how can a null tester demonstrate that there is not
low level differences in two different wires.

Example. If cable A produces a small signal X, and cable B produces a small signal X but at a different level,
and 10db to 40db cancellation reduces both signal Xs to below noise/perception, the null tester won't
distinquish the difference between the 2 wires. However, during regular listening, the original musical
signal is present, and we hear the sonic difference.

At 25:00, 25:55 look very carefully, the scope is showing differences at null, not just noise. However,
his maximum scope sensitivity is 20mv/division (20,000 microvolts/division). I don't believe he mentions
the scope's sensitivity, correct me if I am wrong,

He states, if phase is shifted by a mere .005 degrees, nulling is limited to -80db. (Turn table rumble is
typically 70db down. At least it used to be.) Did I miss how he measured the accuracy of
phase shifting of his tester? If I missed it, I apologize.

I see the same problems in the video as the two "typical frequency response room graphs" he posted
some years ago on another forum when arguing about frequency response perception. The first graph is
from 20-200hz, the second is from 200-20khz.

Does this appear to be a typical frequency response (FR) in a room to you? According
to him, the graphs were measured using a Mackie HR824 2 way speaker
with 8" woofer and 1" dome tweeter (in a quasi horn configuration).

For those who don't understand the graphs, he claims to measure a 40db variation in
frequency response in each graph, in a typical room. In the second graph, not just peaks,
but actual roll off in FR.







Lastly, in my decades of listening testing, with others involved, I find, as others, that silver wire to
be brighter than copper wire.

So my conclusion is I am sorry I cannot concur with many here, that the video is educational or scientific. I wish
I could say otherwise.

cheers

steve

« Last Edit: 18 Nov 2018, 12:28 am by Steve »

Cheytak.408

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #33 on: 16 Nov 2018, 05:20 am »
The LCR wire model is applicable only with air as a dielectric.  Makes perfect sense in that application.  Once that wire is encapsulated in varnish, enamel, lacquer or dielectrics of varying consists then all bets are off.  “Wire” then becomes an electrical system that is very different from the raw metal.

Without considering effects of dielectrics semiconductors do not function.

I will not argue this well known stipulation.  Silicon is our friend.

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #34 on: 16 Nov 2018, 01:00 pm »
I have never used the LCR method of testing my cables I always have used the EAR method and they have served me well.  :icon_lol: :lol: :D

Tyson

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #35 on: 16 Nov 2018, 06:07 pm »
Hypothetically, if there's a test in the future which definitively shows that wires sound and measure differently, I wonder if the "if you can't measure it right now you can't hear it" crowd will adjust their opinions? 

I do hear differences in cable, although the differences are fairly small.  IME the money most spend on pricey cables would get more bang for the buck by going after room treatments, better speakers, better amps, better sources and power conditioning (in that order).  Cables are way down last on the list. 

Also, if you're going to put high quality cables in between your components, you should be consistent and replace the wire inside your DAC/Preamp/Amp/Speakers with high quality wire too.  Again, not a big huge improvement but if you've done everything else to optimize your setup, then it's relatively easy and relatively inexpensive. 

DaveC113

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #36 on: 16 Nov 2018, 07:51 pm »
Hypothetically, if there's a test in the future which definitively shows that wires sound and measure differently, I wonder if the "if you can't measure it right now you can't hear it" crowd will adjust their opinions? 

I do hear differences in cable, although the differences are fairly small.  IME the money most spend on pricey cables would get more bang for the buck by going after room treatments, better speakers, better amps, better sources and power conditioning (in that order).  Cables are way down last on the list. 

Also, if you're going to put high quality cables in between your components, you should be consistent and replace the wire inside your DAC/Preamp/Amp/Speakers with high quality wire too.  Again, not a big huge improvement but if you've done everything else to optimize your setup, then it's relatively easy and relatively inexpensive.


IME that's too general a comment. I've heard systems completely transformed from meh to great only by upgrading cables and others where cables did very little.

I totally agree with upgrading wire and connectors in components, and in some cases it certainly can be a big, huge improvement... it just depends on the component and system.

Basically, if a system has parts in it that add their own sound to the mix to a larger degree, say really cheap passive XO parts like electrolytic caps, cheap sand resistors, etc. and maybe the amp is colored too, then speaker cables won't make a huge difference. OTOH, given a high quality amp, speaker and XO speaker cables can make large differences.

Finally, opinions must be limited to what we know... I've tested many top end cables that cost big $ and I can say it does take some cash to make a really high performing cable. If you've never tried cables regardless of price you may be surprised how much better cables can get. Even selling direct with no overhead I can't offer a top end IC cable for much under $1k, and that's too cheap. I'm kinda screwing myself by offering my cables at the prices I am. So my competition that sells through middlemen, advertises, etc. has to charge several times what I do, and honestly if you haven't tried any of these cables in a good system you don't know.

DaveC113

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #37 on: 16 Nov 2018, 07:52 pm »
The LCR wire model is applicable only with air as a dielectric.  Makes perfect sense in that application.  Once that wire is encapsulated in varnish, enamel, lacquer or dielectrics of varying consists then all bets are off.  “Wire” then becomes an electrical system that is very different from the raw metal.

Without considering effects of dielectrics semiconductors do not function.

I will not argue this well known stipulation.  Silicon is our friend.

Yup, this is exactly what Deulund does. If you try out their silver wire with silk/oil insulation you'd be shocked at how much of a difference it makes. Cables are much more complicated than simple LCR values.

rollo

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #38 on: 16 Nov 2018, 07:55 pm »
we are in total agreement as I am with Franks statement / comment as it relates to capacitance, inductance and resistance.

  Include me in that as well. It would be a huge help if manufactures of components would advise us as to what load the component wants to see. Then we can a cable that offers that.
When looking for a cable #1 is low cap. The said cable should offer NO SONIC SING.of its own. Meaning no coloration of any kind. Not warmer, brighter, etc.
With my gear Lamm there is no need to use cables as tone controls. Frank is correct the better the gear less a need for fixing tonality. One's component should do that.
Until science can actually determine by measurement why LCR differences offer different sonics we are stuck with our subjective ears. So far so good but still subjective.


charles

Tyson

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #39 on: 16 Nov 2018, 08:06 pm »

IME that's too general a comment. I've heard systems completely transformed from meh to great only by upgrading cables and others where cables did very little.

I totally agree with upgrading wire and connectors in components, and in some cases it certainly can be a big, huge improvement... it just depends on the component and system.

Basically, if a system has parts in it that add their own sound to the mix to a larger degree, say really cheap passive XO parts like electrolytic caps, cheap sand resistors, etc. and maybe the amp is colored too, then speaker cables won't make a huge difference. OTOH, given a high quality amp, speaker and XO speaker cables can make large differences.

Finally, opinions must be limited to what we know... I've tested many top end cables that cost big $ and I can say it does take some cash to make a really high performing cable. If you've never tried cables regardless of price you may be surprised how much better cables can get. Even selling direct with no overhead I can't offer a top end IC cable for much under $1k, and that's too cheap. I'm kinda screwing myself by offering my cables at the prices I am. So my competition that sells through middlemen, advertises, etc. has to charge several times what I do, and honestly if you haven't tried any of these cables in a good system you don't know.

I can only speak for my own system, but IME the law of diminishing returns sets in pretty fast, once you get past a certain level of quality.  For cables just like anything else.  Even more odd?  I also find that as the rest of my system has improved, the less overall effect cables seem to have.  I know, weird, right?