Ethan Winer Null Test

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jtwrace


Letitroll98

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #1 on: 11 Nov 2018, 04:08 pm »
So is there a reason to post this other than trolling for an arguement?

jtwrace

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #2 on: 11 Nov 2018, 04:10 pm »
So is there a reason to post this other than trolling for an arguement?
Really?  Clearly it's educational 

Elizabeth

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #3 on: 11 Nov 2018, 04:29 pm »
I agree, it is educational. It does bring up an interesting method of comparing things.
I think immediately of the tests Bob Carver used to adjust his amp to be indistinguishable for the compared tube amp. He did the same sort of null test to create the adjustments.
It is not 'trolling'.

Blackmore

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #4 on: 11 Nov 2018, 04:41 pm »
I didn't understand what happened when Ethan would switch to the null test.  At first you can hear the cymbal ride sounds in the null, then he adjusts something and it moves to straight hiss. Interesting video and thanks for posting it. 


Tomy2Tone

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #5 on: 11 Nov 2018, 04:45 pm »
Thanks for posting the video! But wtf is he saying at the 18.00 minute mark about the mogami w2314 wire he’s making? Shouldn’t the test he’s conducting debunk what he describes about the mogami?

twitch54

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #6 on: 12 Nov 2018, 06:43 pm »
Really?  Clearly it's educational

agreed 100%, wether you're  a 'Winer' fan or not ............

guf

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #7 on: 12 Nov 2018, 06:47 pm »
I wish he would show more of his cats.

avahifi

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #8 on: 12 Nov 2018, 08:00 pm »
There is at least one condition of use where anyone can hear the difference between two different speaker wire construction.

In general, this happens when using a power amplifier that is sensitive to excess load capacitance.  This happens because excess output capacitance causes the output current section of the amplifier design to slow down, causing feedback to arrive late, which can then cause the negative feedback in the design to actually become positive feedback.  This causes overshoot and ringing on fast wave forms, and actually full instability in some cases. This is easy to demonstrate at the test bench.

if one channel of this amplifier is connected to the speaker load with very high capacitance speaker wire, such as the old Polk Cobra Cables, a multiple strand woven wire that traded off series inductance for capacitance, and the other channel with normal 2 conductor zip cord, the the channel using the high capacitance wire will sound brighter due to the transient overshoot.

In a worse case situation, using a power amplifier in which the normal series output inductor have been eliminated, the high capacitance will cause the amplifier to go into full bore oscillation and die.  Then not only can you hear the difference, but you can smell the difference too.

Excess cable capacitance is the enemy of music.  My advice is to use very well shielded low capacitance cable throughout your system.  Excellent technical engineering specifications for cables are not expensive.

Frank



nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #9 on: 12 Nov 2018, 08:05 pm »
"It's all just BS I tell you, Just BS" Ethan Winer

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #10 on: 12 Nov 2018, 08:07 pm »
Jason this is highly debatable. Comical but educational is reaching......

Really?  Clearly it's educational

twitch54

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #11 on: 12 Nov 2018, 09:06 pm »
this is highly debatable.

by all means, tell us more ...........

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #12 on: 12 Nov 2018, 09:25 pm »
This is just going to be another long and drawn out debate if there is an audible difference in cables. You are either in the yes I can hear a difference camp or its all just BS camp. I say we all just agree to disagree and move on to other topics.  :thumb:

by all means, tell us more ...........

PDR

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #13 on: 12 Nov 2018, 10:15 pm »

The "comical" remark is the telling of how your copper is aligned.


nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #14 on: 13 Nov 2018, 12:42 am »
The Yoko Ohno of copper my friend. No less than 60000000 9nines of OCC goodness.

The "comical" remark is the telling of how your copper is aligned.

speshal

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #15 on: 13 Nov 2018, 06:11 am »
There is at least one condition of use where anyone can hear the difference between two different speaker wire construction.

In general, this happens when using a power amplifier that is sensitive to excess load capacitance.  This happens because excess output capacitance causes the output current section of the amplifier design to slow down, causing feedback to arrive late, which can then cause the negative feedback in the design to actually become positive feedback.  This causes overshoot and ringing on fast wave forms, and actually full instability in some cases. This is easy to demonstrate at the test bench.

if one channel of this amplifier is connected to the speaker load with very high capacitance speaker wire, such as the old Polk Cobra Cables, a multiple strand woven wire that traded off series inductance for capacitance, and the other channel with normal 2 conductor zip cord, the the channel using the high capacitance wire will sound brighter due to the transient overshoot.

In a worse case situation, using a power amplifier in which the normal series output inductor have been eliminated, the high capacitance will cause the amplifier to go into full bore oscillation and die.  Then not only can you hear the difference, but you can smell the difference too.

Excess cable capacitance is the enemy of music.  My advice is to use very well shielded low capacitance cable throughout your system.  Excellent technical engineering specifications for cables are not expensive.

Frank

Goertz and other high capacitance wire used to create more problems than they do now, but you are right to point that out.  Desperately going for low inductance in speaker wire without a concern for capacitance can still be problematic, and most people don't realize it until it's too late.

However, I'm confused by your recommendation.  You were talking about speaker wire and then said your advice was to use "very well shielded low capacitance cable".  Were you advocating shielding speaker cables???  Are you sure you weren't just referring to ICs with that advice?  Adding a shield to speaker wire would do nothing positive in almost any scenario PLUS increase capacitance.

I can understand shielding ICs and living with the extra capacitance, but not speaker cables.

Letitroll98

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #16 on: 13 Nov 2018, 01:12 pm »
Really?  Clearly it's educational

Nothing personal meant, I think everyone here values your contributions to the site.  And I do think we'll be educated, once again, but it won't be illustrative of anything but our differences.  I have great faith in the decorum and character of our membership that allows these cable debates to not devolve into personal attacks, however they are never anything but circular arguments.

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #17 on: 13 Nov 2018, 02:51 pm »
Well said......I like a friendly debate on the many audio mystery topics. For some reason cables tend to bring out the worst in us audiophiles.

Nothing personal meant, I think everyone here values your contributions to the site.  And I do think we'll be educated, once again, but it won't be illustrative of anything but our differences.  I have great faith in the decorum and character of our membership that allows these cable debates to not devolve into personal attacks, however they are never anything but circular arguments.

twitch54

Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #18 on: 13 Nov 2018, 03:25 pm »
Well said......I like a friendly debate on the many audio mystery topics. For some reason cables tend to bring out the worst in us audiophiles.

while true so much of these 'so-called' debates are backed up with beliefs and not science. I've always found the majority of audiophiles that believe in uber expensive cabling have little to no engineering or scientific background yet feel their hearing is the end all. Nothing could be further from the truth.

back to Ethans little 'box', I give the man credit for trying to engineer science and logic into the equation. I will say though he appears to have consumed quite a few donuts during the process !

nc42acc

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Re: Ethan Winer Null Test
« Reply #19 on: 13 Nov 2018, 03:29 pm »
My ears have been scientifically certified to be golden. I only know what I hear. I will leave with a quote from the late Popeye "I ain't no tailor but I know what suits me"

while true so much of these 'so-called' debates are backed up with beliefs and not science. I've always found the majority of audiophiles that believe in uber expensive cabling have little to no engineering or scientific background yet feel their hearing is the end all. Nothing could be further from the truth.

back to Ethans little 'box', I give the man credit for trying to engineer science and logic into the equation. I will say though he appears to have consumed quite a few donuts during the process !