NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23

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sresener

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #80 on: 2 Aug 2019, 02:44 pm »
Since there is no USB out and the Evo DAC ONLY FULLY  decodes mqa via USB. That's one feature he that would of peaked my interest.

Tan Raymond

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #81 on: 5 Aug 2019, 01:52 pm »
Hi all,
I'm still very confused with all these streamers and rendered. After reading the Omnia's manual, I'm still not sure how it's going to work for me. Hope I'm not crashing this thread or writing out of context here. I'm currently using a laptop with winmediacenter, connected to dac 10 using USB. I'm looking for a component that will allow me to store my music and play it using a remote control or from a phone or a tablet without having the laptop connected. Is the Omnia the one??  If not does Nuprime has a component that does that?

rustydoglim

Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #82 on: 8 Aug 2019, 03:15 pm »
Hi all,
I'm still very confused with all these streamers and rendered. After reading the Omnia's manual, I'm still not sure how it's going to work for me. Hope I'm not crashing this thread or writing out of context here. I'm currently using a laptop with winmediacenter, connected to dac 10 using USB. I'm looking for a component that will allow me to store my music and play it using a remote control or from a phone or a tablet without having the laptop connected. Is the Omnia the one??  If not does Nuprime has a component that does that?

Your question is very welcome and will help us to create a whole FAQ section on wireless audio.
The answer to your question is "it depends on your performance requirement".  Let me explain here.
Lets go through some basic terminology (I am writing the FAQ as I compose this reply):

Media Server - It reads locally connected hard drive or network storage device for the music library and can send the decodced music format in PCM or DSD via physical USB, optical, coaxial or ethernet cable, or WiFi to the receiving end.  All the so called media servers on the market are either Windows, Linux (Synology is also a customized version of Linux) or Android.  They are all "computer".   The media server is generally a DLNA server where DLNA is an industry standard.  Apple has its own iTune server format. There are some variations in the DLNA formats (such as album, artist, etc) but we don't need to go into these here.

Streamer - this is technically a DLNA renderer but generally called a receiver.

So now you can put together the basic system:  A controller (App on phone or tablet, or software running on computer) can locally or remotely control (ie. communciate) the server and streamer.  It can browse the server for music and then ask the server to send the decoded music to the receiver.  But there are more ways that music can flow from one place to another.  Streaming services have their own Apps (Spotify, Tidal, Qobuz, etc) that run on PC or mobile devices to send music from the cloud to your receiver.  Obviously your mobile devices (they are all "computer") can also send local music from phone to receiver.

Just think of all the physical devices as "computer".  Think of media server as a piece of software that retrieve local or network music.  Think of streamer as the software that receives music.  And think of Controller or Player as the software that "talk" to all these devices, including the stream services that reside in the cloud.  Now we strip away all the jargon and confusing terminologies.

One last thing before I answer your question:  Since media server and streamer are software, so they can BOTH co-exist on the same physical device. This is a very important concept.  That's why some "streamer" can serve and receive msuic.  And in some cases a single software (such as the Windows or JRiver Media Center) is both a server and receiver.

Ok, now we can discuss your setup. If you have a large library of DSD music, then using a PC (Windows or Mac) to connect via USB cable to DAC offers the best performance. 
If not, then you can use a media server (hey, remember that it is still a computer in disguise, but with customised hardware such as better power supply etc).  You can use Omnia S1, Raspberry Pi, Synology, or all sorts of so called media server to serve up your music libary (resides on a hard disk that is connected to the server device).  Or you can still keep on using your PC or Mac.

Why use Omnia S1 ?
1) The main difference between Omnia S1 and all other media server is that it can run standard streaming services App like Spotify, Tidal, Qobuz etc on it.  Oh, youtube too. You can not do that with Raspbery Pi or Synology and other media servers. Well, WIndows or Mac PC can do that too.  This is important because the hardware no longer depends on the "mercy" of the streaming services.  It is well known that Spotify has stoppped supporting those AV receivers that have built in service.  The streaming services (Apple, Amazon, Spotify, Tidal, Quobuz etc) all want to control the user interface.
What if you say I don't care about running App on Omnia S1, I just want a device that can serve up my music?  Then read #2 below.

2) Omnia S1 has a custom hardware that optimises the decoding, buffering and streaming of music.  And it has the NuPrime styling and matches the 9 series.  If you don't care about this, then you either go back to PC or buy Synology or other media servers.
Disclosure: Omnia S1 gives better performance when serving local music than straming App, and this is not due to the music format. Given the same format (CD quality for example), local or network music goes through Omnia renderer and custom audio firmware.  The streaming App gets the music from the cloud and go through standard Anroid audio firmware so it won't sound as good.   Illustration:
a) Spotify music from cloud --> Spofity app on Omnia S1 --> standard Android audio firmware --> output to DAC
b) Local or network music --> Omnia Renderer on Omnia S1 --> custom Android audio firmware --> output to DAC
We are working on replacing the entire Android audio firmware but that's a lot of work. Then a) and b) will have the same performance given the same music format.

Some of you technical savy guys might ask how can wireless be the same as local network ? Because Omnia S1 has large local buffer on the motherboard.

Final setup:
Omnia S1 connected to a small LCD display, with wireless keyboard and mouse. You need the display whenever you want to run the straming apps or administer the device. This allows Omnia S1 to function without a tablet or phone. You can run the streaming app and play music all day long without looking for your phone to control it. This is convenient if you have a household with several people sharing the music system.
Omnia S1 is connected by coaxial cable to DAC-10 for PCM 24bit/384kHz or DSD64 music.  Omnia S1 i2S can send up to DSD1024 but you need a high end DAC such as Evo DAC with I2S input to decode (even Evo can only do DSD512).
You can use any DLNA compatible controller/Player (such as Bubble uPnP) to control Omnia S1 from tablet or phone.  Nuprime app will come later, around October.

Note that you can't use Spotify/Tidal etc app on your phone to send streaming music from phone to Omnia S1.  You need to run the streaming app on Omnia S1 instead.  This is not the purpose of Omnia S1.  NuPrime Omnia WR ($329 MSRP) is a streamer/receiver scheduling for October release that allows you to stream Spotify etc from phone to Omnia WR (it also comes with Bluetooth 5.0 for convenient)

Since Omnia S1 is a device with server and streamer software on it, you can stream from Omnia S1 to Omnia S1, each having different music library.

John Casler

Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #83 on: 8 Aug 2019, 05:58 pm »
Jason, this is great!

Might consider making it a sticky.   :thumb:

rustydoglim

Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #84 on: 8 Aug 2019, 09:15 pm »
We will rewrite in more details with illustrations. 
On the website there is an article about wireless technology but it is not written as plain as this post:
https://nuprimeaudio.com/guides/wireless-audio-technology-guide/



Tan Raymond

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #85 on: 9 Aug 2019, 07:41 am »
Thanks Jason, this certainly helps a retiree understand all the jargon a lot better. I think I'll have to wait for your software ready units as I'm not going into downloading and tweaking the apps to make things work. Bluesound has some good hardware with a simple loaded software which allows a external storage, which is what I'm looking for. Let's see how your hardware with the apps/software loaded turns out. Thanks again.

simon740

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #86 on: 9 Aug 2019, 10:46 am »
So Omnia S1 with coaksial out to DAC 9 will be good match?

rustydoglim

Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #87 on: 11 Aug 2019, 12:40 am »
Thanks Jason, this certainly helps a retiree understand all the jargon a lot better. I think I'll have to wait for your software ready units as I'm not going into downloading and tweaking the apps to make things work. Bluesound has some good hardware with a simple loaded software which allows a external storage, which is what I'm looking for. Let's see how your hardware with the apps/software loaded turns out. Thanks again.

What do you mean by waiting for software ready units? Omnia S1 works from "day one" with any DLNA compatible software and hardware.
The server and receiver software run in the background upon power up.

Tan Raymond

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #88 on: 13 Aug 2019, 05:43 am »
Ahhh, my bad. Not digesting everything properly. Thanks for the clarification.

Csatariano

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #89 on: 17 Apr 2020, 08:28 am »
The I2s interface is compatibile with al the dac? With audio gd? Is a ps audio standard ?

richard_crl032

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #90 on: 17 Apr 2020, 05:56 pm »
Hi,

I check the i2s pin config of my Denadrip Terminator DAC and looks like setting of 100 will work but also noticed that the S1 hdmi pin out #14 say dsd on which the Terminator does not have ... any foreseeable issue ?

I also read the earlier post on usb out and read the schematics on your website but since it is android based, can I not install usb audio player pro (uapp) and have audio output from one of the usb ports mentioned for keyboard, mouse etc. like the usual usb otg output to bypass the android driver when not on omnia S1 audio driver ?

Thanks !

Richard

rustydoglim

Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #91 on: 18 Apr 2020, 11:09 pm »
I2S on HDMI is not an industry standard. All the pins specification must match exactly for NuPrime devices to work with another brand.

rustydoglim

Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #92 on: 18 Apr 2020, 11:12 pm »
I also read the earlier post on usb out and read the schematics on your website but since it is android based, can I not install usb audio player pro (uapp) and have audio output from one of the usb ports mentioned for keyboard, mouse etc. like the usual usb otg output to bypass the android driver when not on omnia S1 audio driver ?

This is not an officially approved configuration. Omnia S1 has a customised Android OS and device driver.
Until we can test and approve it, please do not assume that it will work. 

rustydoglim

Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #93 on: 18 Apr 2020, 11:13 pm »
By the way, we are also considering offering a Linux OS version for users who just want a high performance media server without the complexity of the Android App and OS>

richard_crl032

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #94 on: 23 Apr 2020, 01:26 pm »
I2S on HDMI is not an industry standard. All the pins specification must match exactly for NuPrime devices to work with another brand.

Hi Rusty,

Understand non standard i2s ...

As mentioned, denafrips Terminator is configurable and setting 100 matches all pin #s except Nuprime has additional pin #14 "On DSD" which Terminator's pin #14 is grounded.

I took the plunge and it will be delivered tmrw for me to find out but any advice will be much appreciated.

I only bought the Nuprime Omnis S1 for its reported excellent sound quality for its "full" i2s output and dsd
... having others via android driver is practically useless for me especially if I cannot even install uapp to bypass android driver and have usb audio from default android platform.

Btw, I checked and cannot find more popular brands with #14 pin "On dsd" e.g. PS audio, Sonore etc.



Cheers.

Richard

richard_crl032

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #95 on: 23 Apr 2020, 01:33 pm »
Nuprime omnia s1 vs Denafrips Termiantor I2S pin config

richard_crl032

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #96 on: 23 Apr 2020, 01:42 pm »






rustydoglim

Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #97 on: 24 Apr 2020, 05:17 am »
We use Pin14 to tell our DAC whether the I2S data is DSD or PCM.  Ask your DAC vendor how they can determine between PCM and DSD. If they auto detect, then it will work for you.

We are considering offering a Linux firmware update for people who don't care about running App and just want a stable media server.


richard_crl032

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #98 on: 26 Apr 2020, 10:34 am »
Hi Rusty,

Thanks for helping to understand more !  Here are ood news:

- Received the unit on Friday from your very nice and capable distro in Singpore, Edgefi, who helped daily via whatsapp, call and emails on some network/streaming related issues
- DSD working with Denafrip Terminator via i2s that indeed autodetect dsd and does not require pin#14 "On DSD" ... I had actually missed that Omnia S1 actually also has pin #10 and 12 which are MCK+/- Masterclock data lines which Denafrips simply did not publish
- Most importantly, Sound Quality is indeed obviously better than allo usb bridge signature regardless dsd or flac music ... albiet at almost 3x more but moode OS has very nice internet radio especially at those full flac stations

However, it SEEMS that:
- omnia server via rear usb3.0 port  does not work with my 2tb ntfs hdd .. fat32 works which created 2 days of trials and will try exfat but what is the max hdd size ?
- hdmi i2s is wrong from either omnia s1 or Terminator .. using test disc and polarity checker, pin#4, 6 for phase and # 7 and 9 for left/right channels should be all reversed when I tested against coaxial input with 2 different factory terminated coaxial digital which does not have this i2s pin out complication .. what is data +/- pin 1 and 3 about as I cannot heard any difference but chose also to reverse it and hence config of 100 on Terminator is set at 011 instead

Thanks again and it is nice to have upgraded sound quality in my system ... clear/transparent, detailed/extended and fast/dynamic without going into more meaningless audio jargons for those usbridge signature owners wanting to upgrade and lurking here

Cheers.

Richard

richard_crl032

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Re: NuPrime Omnia S1 at Paris Audio Show, Oct 21-23
« Reply #99 on: 26 Apr 2020, 02:13 pm »
Hi Jason,

Nuprime Omnia S1 needs better user manual .. could have save 1 day of somebody's life and did not realised I can put storage device into it .. lol !

I also recommend progress status and prompt on completion when restarting dlna service, regenerating database etc. in the web admin page since none I can see except click on done which I will not know.

Btw, playing dsd64 music via coaxial is fine but no sound with dsd128, 256, 512 etc. .... Omnia S1 does not downsample to max spec. of dsd64 ?

Thanks again and cheers.

Richard