Suggestions for room treatment

rlal · « **on:** 12 Sep 2018, 09:14 pm »

Hi,

I recently moved to an apartment and I didnt pay too much attention to floor plan and I regret for that now.
There are lot of challenges since it is open to dining and kitchen on one side.
After thinking a lot I positioned my speakers and I am attaching the pictures. I am using Salk Silk towers (transmission line) speaker with ports at rear.
I have only two speakers now and it is separated by 8 feet and listening position is 8.5 feet . Maintained unequal distance with front and side wall for left speaker.

First of all I am not able to maintain symmetry between left and right speakers. On left side of speaker I have a wall and on right side it is open to dining room.
Can you guys suggest some room treatment?
I can try few bass traps and acoustic panels.

If required I am ok in even re positioning the speakers if there is another good location in the living room.

Thanks in advance for suggestions.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Sep 2018, 06:38 pm »

I am sure the pro's will help a lot.

I will offer my own experience with a setup that is similar in nature - ie a wall near one side but far from the other.

I found great improvement using wide band traps at the first reflection point on the near wall, and bass traps in that same corner.

I found some more improvement using wide band traps on the far wall at the first reflection point, but less dramatic than the near wall.

Good luck!

rlal · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Sep 2018, 07:40 pm »

Quote from: mcgsxr on 13 Sep 2018, 06:38 pm

I am sure the pro's will help a lot.

I will offer my own experience with a setup that is similar in nature - ie a wall near one side but far from the other.

I found great improvement using wide band traps at the first reflection point on the near wall, and bass traps in that same corner.

I found some more improvement using wide band traps on the far wall at the first reflection point, but less dramatic than the near wall.

Good luck!

Thanks a lot for your reply.
Even I thought of adding bass trap at the left side corner. Now do we need to cover it from bottom to top?
I thought of using acoustic panels at first reflection point on left side. I thought of not adding anything on right side instead was thinking of adding few on rear wall.
My listening position is around 5 feet or more from rear wall.

Other question I have two corners in front ( left side)due to the AC/heater duct in front. I know bass builds maximum at corners and
I am not sure how to deal with second corner.

I am waiting to hear from some real professionals.

Thanks.

benguin · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 Sep 2018, 01:05 pm »

I had a similar lack of symmetry issue going with my setup. I took a diagram to the GIK booth at Axpona, and got an immediate response of "Have you considered having your set up on the diagonal, instead of along one wall?" My immediate response was 'No, I'm not sure that would work.". However, once I got home, the first thing I did was start moving the couch, chairs, and audio/video around. In before and after measurements with REW, the difference was staggering in response.

Next step was to get the decay rate down, and GIK helped get me set up there with an array of panels for the corners, walls, and on the ceiling. With the combination, the room requires very little fine tuning from room EQ processor.

I'm a firm believer is using the REW software to get a baseline and identify your issues. Meanwhile, you can experiment with some trial and error with placement and you may find a set up that works well.

I'm sure you will be able to get it sorted out!

rlal · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 Sep 2018, 03:17 pm »

Thanks a lot for your suggestions.
My living room is really a bad one. I think it will be difficult to set it up along diagonal.
Do you think setting up along diagonal is a viable option based on floor plan? I can try it.

I am familiar with with Dirac and I will try to use REW, need to learn how to use it.
I will try to do some measurement and overlay the response and compare couple of locations.
By addition of panels will measure response and will study the improvement.

My main issue with current position of speakers is it is not symmetric due to side wall on left side and open on other side.
Rear left side I have wall and right side I have sliding glass window.
Struggling to find the ideal position and proper room treatment.

Thanks

timind · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 Sep 2018, 03:21 pm »

I'm nor sure if the diagonal setup will work for you in that room, especially with that large recliner. That said, I'm a big believer in the diagonal and suggest you try it. It worked wonders in my perfect square room along with some GIK bass traps.

rlal · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 Sep 2018, 03:53 pm »

I too heard diagonal placement is a good option for square rooms.
My present room it will be difficult to do considering the general use of a living room and due to recliner.
It may look odd but will look in to that option.

If I am not able to go with diagonal placement what are the other options or solution?
I will place bass trap at left corner and 244 panels at first reflection points on left side and few at rear wall.

Bass traps do we need to keep it from bottom to top?

Please let me know.

Thanks

benguin · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Sep 2018, 08:22 pm »

I was dead set against even trying the diagonal approach, as there was no way I thought it was workable with either my AV layout or seating. I also thought my wife would hate it- but after moving things around a bit, I figured I'd live with it a bit and see if the heavily revised foot path was workable. Turns out, it was not only livable but gave the room a better, less boxy 'feel'.

From looking at your plan, the first way to try would be to use that corner where your system currently is with the TV cabinet diagonally placed back in the corner to the left of your sliding door, and the speakers flanking, and pulled forward a bit. Then the recliner parallel to the TV, with hopefully a walkthrough path available in front and behind.

If one of the GIK team spots this, they may have some product recommendations. With a diagonal placement, it does give you a great spot to stack some soffit traps, which worked well for me at improving the low frequency nodes. GIK has a form via their site you can send in for specific recommendations too.
Ben

rlal · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Sep 2018, 08:35 pm »

Quote from: benguin on 14 Sep 2018, 08:22 pm

I was dead set against even trying the diagonal approach, as there was no way I thought it was workable with either my AV layout or seating. I also thought my wife would hate it- but after moving things around a bit, I figured I'd live with it a bit and see if the heavily revised foot path was workable. Turns out, it was not only livable but gave the room a better, less boxy 'feel'.

From looking at your plan, the first way to try would be to use that corner where your system currently is with the TV cabinet diagonally placed back in the corner to the left of your sliding door, and the speakers flanking, and pulled forward a bit. Then the recliner parallel to the TV, with hopefully a walkthrough path available in front and behind.

Ben

I went and checked in the afternoon and felt it is not at all possible. Let me do a try today as you suggested but I am not very positive

.
Thanks for looking in to my layout and giving tips, really appreciate it.
I do have a good AVR and I was thinking of adding two surround speakers. With diagonal placement it may be difficult to add surround speakers.

I have submitted all the details in GIK websites and got some suggestions. I am looking in to the different options.

As mentioned earlier I was thinking of finding the best location of speaker in my living room.

Thanks
Renjith

Hipper · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Sep 2018, 08:33 am »

Firstly I'm not a professional, just someone who has messed about with positioning and room treatment for the last fourteen years or so.

I reckon you've probably got the best arrangement that's possible but could move things about a little. The disadvantages you have are the open space on the right but an advantage is the space you've got behind your sofa.

My idea would be to position everything as best as possible then use room treatment to correct the problems.

If you can it would be best to pull the speakers out further into the room. When I say further out I mean by about seven feet from the front wall and three feet from the side wall (using an extended line from the kitchen wall to the front wall window)! Your speakers will now be about three feet apart! Your sofa (your ears really) will be about seven feet from the back wall. That is, by looking at the Living Room area of 20' x 10' and using this 'The Thirds' concept:

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm

If you can't have the speakers there permanently, consider moving them there just for listening then storing out of the way when not in use. Try the position any way to hear what it does. 'The Fifths' would be pretty good too, and perhaps more practical.

For room treatment, the left side has corners that will affect bass. I would think a couple of bass traps in the left corner would help, but bass traps are usually large and not pretty (and, is that some sort of vent in the corner?). Bass traps can go in any corner - wall-wall both back and front, wall-ceiling and wall-floor. I don't know which corners are the most effective. If they are equally effective you will have more options. This might be a question to ask.

With side wall reflections, some people like them, others don't. I think you will get reflections off the kitchen wall if you adopt 'The Thirds' (or 'The Fifths') so you now have symmetry here. To prevent reflections (which I now prefer) you need some absorbent panels at the specific points of reflection on the walls, or, standing on feet beside the speakers. These can be decorative - you can submit your images for printing on the cloth that covers the panels.

If room treatment, or some of it like bass traps, is not practical, you could use Digital Signal Processing (DSP) or an equaliser.

I use all three methods: positioning, room treatment then EQ to finish off.

rlal · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Sep 2018, 03:50 pm »

Hello Hipper,

First of all I want to thank you for studying all the details in my room and giving suggestions.
Really appreciate your support.

Rule of third will be bit difficult due to other practical issue and WAF but I can try 1/5 th rule for sure.
As you said only advantage in my living room is that I can move my listening position rearward or forward.
I can try 3 feet away from side wall. One thing preventing me in doing before was my speaker manufacturer suggested 8 feet or more between speakers. I will try to make 3 feet with side wall but I have to reduce the 8 feet between speakers because it is difficult to move right speaker towards right and my sweet spot will move towards right side.

As you mentioned first priority is to position speaker at the best position and then go with room treatment.
I have to try bass trap and few acoustic panels at side wall.
As you observed there is a vent for AC and I have two corners on left side with three wall meeting at front wall.
I think it will be difficult to cover the second one. I am not sure if there is a way to cover corner.
Bass trap do we need to cover from bottom to top and because of vent it is not standard height.

With my present position of speaker or with 1/5th rule (I will follow it) do I need to worry with side wall reflection on right side?

With around 6 feet with rear wall do I need to add any panels on rear wall and if so do I need to consider some scatter plate on
panels?

DSP or EQ I dont have much idea.I have Dirac room correction in my AVR and will try to use it but not sure how to implement it for my stereo amp.

Thanks

Tyson · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Sep 2018, 07:22 pm »

If you are really and truly stuck with this room and can't move the speakers around, I'd recommend selling those speakers and getting a pair of speakers that are:

1. Open Baffle
2. Use Powered Bass/subs

I had a place similar to yours and I had (very nice) box speakers. I messed around with EQ and room treatments for years and only got minor results. Going to Open Baffle was really the only thing that let me get decent sound from that nightmare of a room.

And active bass is really helpful because your speaker on the left is going to be overloading the room with bass, while the speaker on the right will have a bass suckout, due to their different acoustic spaces. An active bass section will allow you to dial in the bass of each speaker individually. Still won't be ideal but it will be FAR better than what you can achieve with your current speakers.

Re: WAF. She can say "I don't want those speakers in the middle of the room", to which you can now say "well then, I need to change speakers to something that will work well in the space you've allotted me." Who knows, you might get a nice little upgrade out of the deal.

rlal · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Sep 2018, 07:41 pm »

Tyson,

I just got the speakers and I am using it first time at this apartment.
So changing the speaker is not an option now, I had a popular speaker and I didn't like it much and just traded it got this one.
So even with bass traps at left corner and acoustic panels it wont solve my problem?

I can move to a new apartment after this lease but need to wait for 11 months otherwise need to terminate the lease and moving
all the things is a pain, I just moved here.

Hipper · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 Sep 2018, 03:58 pm »

If the sound is that important to you that it's worth moving then do it and don't waste time and money on trying to change things where you are now.

There is a MiniDSP with Dirac that may help:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series

That may get you somewhere. Those that have used it report good results.

rlal · « **Reply #14 on:** 17 Sep 2018, 05:09 pm »

Hipper,

My current AVR have Dirac and I used it for HT but still have some boom. Will try REW to understand the issue with room.
If I put bass trap and acoustic panels at first reflection point will it solve my issue?

Experts please let me know.

Thanks

timind · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 Sep 2018, 08:58 pm »

Moving is pretty drastic in my opinion. The bass trapping and first reflection should help some, but "solve" your problem in that room? Doubtful.

Out of curiosity, where are you located?

rlal · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 Sep 2018, 09:25 pm »

At least I want to try bass trap and acoustic panels at first reflection points.
Even I am not sure

.
I am 30 miles from Detroit.

Hipper · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Sep 2018, 09:13 am »

I would suggest you contact GIK directly. They offer free advice in the hope of selling you their products.

I've used their advice and bought their products and recommend them.

Any bass traps or panels will not solve your problems completely but will help reduce them.

rlal · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Sep 2018, 01:40 pm »

Quote from: Hipper on 18 Sep 2018, 09:13 am

I would suggest you contact GIK directly. They offer free advice in the hope of selling you their products.

I've used their advice and bought their products and recommend them.

Any bass traps or panels will not solve your problems completely but will help reduce them.

I have contacted GIK and they suggested entry level rook kit and second suggestion was to use bass traps and few acoustic panels
at the first reflection points and rear wall. Since I am in a rented apartment I am bit hesitant to go with acoustic panels at ceiling,
I am not sure if my decision is correct or not.

So take away from all suggestion, first thing is speakers should be placed in such a way that it has symmetry on left and
right side and should be placed on the long wall in a rectangular room. I will look for all this in the next place where I move.

As of now I will look to add bass traps and few acoustic panels.
Which bass trap is best in my case, triangular or monster bass trap?
I am bit confused with different options available

.

Thanks

Hipper · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Sep 2018, 01:27 pm »

On the GIK site each product has some lab tests that measure their effect using a frequency vs absorption graph. It looks like Monsters across corners are more effective than Tri-Traps to absorb bass, although Soffit Traps are the best.

If you get panels you can get feet for them that means you don't have to attach them to walls and can easily move them about. My panels on the front and back wall sit on the floor and I've attached them with hooks near the top so they don't fall over and stand upright.

You should test to hear if ceiling reflections are an issue. You could temporarily put a panel on the ceiling by jamming it up there from the floor with a 'T' shaped piece of wood. You could try a cushion or duvet instead. It all depends on how your speaker radiates sound vertically. Another way to test this is to temporarily put a panel on top of the speaker sticking out at the front a bit.

You are right about speaker symmetry but usually people put speakers on the short wall - if it's not too short - as this gives them more room to keep the listening chair away from the back wall. On the internet there are all sorts of guidelines as to what size, shape, and ratios of sizes, an ideal room is.