Building the ZEUS

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Early B.

Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #20 on: 14 Oct 2018, 12:17 pm »
wow... it looks like you'll need 1000 watts just to power through the crossover region

The issue isn't how few watts it takes to drive a particular set of speakers, but how much power is needed to make them sound their best. I have 98dB speakers, and they sound better (i.e., more dynamic, detailed and impactful) with lots of watts. The amp has to push power effortlessly through the speakers cables and the crossover, plus have tons of power on hand to eliminate clipping. Theoretically, the more complex the crossover, the more power that's needed. I believe that's what oem-wheels was trying to say. 

Those speakers look incredible, BTW. The crossover looks like it belongs in a high end amp. If I could afford them, I'd own a pair.

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #21 on: 14 Oct 2018, 03:33 pm »
The issue isn't how few watts it takes to drive a particular set of speakers, but how much power is needed to make them sound their best. I have 98dB speakers, and they sound better (i.e., more dynamic, detailed and impactful) with lots of watts. The amp has to push power effortlessly through the speakers cables and the crossover, plus have tons of power on hand to eliminate clipping. Theoretically, the more complex the crossover, the more power that's needed. I believe that's what oem-wheels was trying to say. 

Those speakers look incredible, BTW. The crossover looks like it belongs in a high end amp. If I could afford them, I'd own a pair.

Very true, just high sensitivity does not mean they will really work well with few watts of power. A well designed and executed crossover though does. Attention to stable impedance, DCR, low loss capacitors and resistors etc. are ALL parts of a quality crossover. When done right a multi driver system can achieve the kind of transparency of a single driver non-crossover system, (without the compromises).

btw, I find the analogy of a garden hose hooked up to a fire hydrant compared to a fire hose to be an apt analogy for a crossover with few (electrolytic) capacitors per each leg of the circuit to one with many high quality caps per value.  The larger one has fewer restrictions.

Bottom line is that our systems do NOT take large amounts of current or watts to achieve their best sound, they are consistent  at all volumes and with low or high power amps.

cheech

Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #22 on: 14 Oct 2018, 06:44 pm »
I don't have the Zeus, but Lou's  Argos V2s are easily driven with either of my 22wpc tube integrated amps - Line Magnetic 518 IA or Finale Audio 7189 (II) without going past 10 on the "dial" in a 28x20x10 room , musciality, dynamics, etc etc. no not suffer with lower powered amps with Lou's design and implementation. JMHO

ketcham

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #23 on: 15 Oct 2018, 05:41 am »
Today Lou graciously traveled 7 hours south and personally delivered the Zeus to their new home and help set them up.  He was kind enough to give some insight on optimizing the room which has inherent challenges.  He is a true gentleman.  I can say with confidence that contrary to popular belief, these speakers can play well in a smaller room if needed.  Given the two part design, they certainly are easy to set up with two people and once set up I had no issue moving them around alone.  The footprint is much smaller than I imagine and certainly much smaller than high end speakers by other manufacturers.  Lou did mention a concept design that will be even better than the Zeus that I joked should step away form Daedalus tradition and named after the Grateful Dead's The Wall of Sound, designed by the Bear Stanley.

https://enmoreaudio.com/remembering-the-grateful-deads-wall-of-sound-an-absurd-feat-of-technological-engineering/

Lou did take some pictures but the lighting was not appropriate and honestly the cabling is a mess.  Immediately after Lou left, my wife interrogated me regarding this very issue, and gave me the ultimatum to dial it in by this weekend as a birthday present to her.   I will send him some quality photographs in the coming days. 

I have a new dac that will be unlike anything on the market today coming.  This does not necessarily mean it is better, just different.  I will give a report as things settle out in the coming months.  Anyone in the area or visiting is always welcome to listen.

If anyone thinks our hobby is an expensive one, get to know a musician.  Instruments of certain flavors gave me perspective.  In the right hands, however, well worth it!

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #24 on: 17 Oct 2018, 07:27 pm »



ZEUS in their new home.



Showroom ZEUS Maple top/ Ebonized Walnut base(left) next to the new set Baked Maple top / Claro Walnut base.

A_shah

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #25 on: 18 Oct 2018, 05:55 am »
Today Lou graciously traveled 7 hours south and personally delivered the Zeus to their new home and help set them up.  He was kind enough to give some insight on optimizing the room which has inherent challenges.  He is a true gentleman.  I can say with confidence that contrary to popular belief, these speakers can play well in a smaller room if needed.  Given the two part design, they certainly are easy to set up with two people and once set up I had no issue moving them around alone.  The footprint is much smaller than I imagine and certainly much smaller than high end speakers by other manufacturers.  Lou did mention a concept design that will be even better than the Zeus that I joked should step away form Daedalus tradition and named after the Grateful Dead's The Wall of Sound, designed by the Bear Stanley.

https://enmoreaudio.com/remembering-the-grateful-deads-wall-of-sound-an-absurd-feat-of-technological-engineering/

Lou did take some pictures but the lighting was not appropriate and honestly the cabling is a mess.  Immediately after Lou left, my wife interrogated me regarding this very issue, and gave me the ultimatum to dial it in by this weekend as a birthday present to her.   I will send him some quality photographs in the coming days. 

I have a new dac that will be unlike anything on the market today coming.  This does not necessarily mean it is better, just different.  I will give a report as things settle out in the coming months.  Anyone in the area or visiting is always welcome to listen.

If anyone thinks our hobby is an expensive one, get to know a musician.  Instruments of certain flavors gave me perspective.  In the right hands, however, well worth it!


Interesting you send a link about Wall of Sound , David Gans is interviewing John Curl at the San Francisco society  event ( i do own JC Parasound HINT  now sitting in the garage !)this coming October the 20th , I will probably be attending that function https://sanfranciscoaudiophilesociety.com/events/ I believe it was John Curl who" built the Wall of Sound but the concept was Owsley Bear Stanley's,.
Any way congratulations ! I might be visiting Lou next Feb./ March , may be I will stop by your place if i am welcome to check out your incredible system will be PM you for your whereabouts now what DAC are we talking about ? :thumb:



Asghar

jriggy

Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #26 on: 18 Oct 2018, 03:47 pm »
Ketchum and A_shah,

Thanks for the blog post link and the heads up on the upcoming John Curl interview!

I just finished Bears biography. Pretty good. Filled in some gaps, told a few good stories and lots of little interesting tid-bits.

I’m sure John Curl may have ‘built’ the Wall of Sound, just like the rest of the crew did with their blood sweat and tears, but I think he’d be below Dan Healy, the guys of Alembic and of course Bear, when it comes to credited. I’ll be interested to find out what, if any part of it was his, other than being there and on the crew. He certainly went on to do great things. I’m just not sure where he sits in the pecking order of credit for the Wall of Sound. If he is, he’s been left out of all the accounts I’ve read.

And oh my goodness, that baked maple is gorgeous on the Zeus!! And I can only imagine what a bigger and better system to the Zeus would be!

Jason



rollo

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #27 on: 18 Oct 2018, 03:57 pm »
  Finish is off the charts. One of the best cabinets in the Biz IMO.

charles

abd1

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #28 on: 18 Oct 2018, 04:47 pm »


I have a new dac that will be unlike anything on the market today coming.  This does not necessarily mean it is better, just different.  I will give a report as things settle out in the coming months.  Anyone in the area or visiting is always welcome to listen.


These look amazing, true work of functional art. Where in PDX are you? I'm in Lake Oswego. I might have to take you up on your offer. Curious about the DAC you mentioned. Any more details?

ketcham

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #29 on: 21 Oct 2018, 04:32 pm »
abd1 - PM sent.

Update:  it takes so little to drives these speakers!!!!  my amps are 60 watt 300b x4, monoblocks. 

We have been playing them at almost background levels since entire family is focus on academics.  I am impressed the clarity, imaging and soundstage that exists at even the lowest level.    Base is very tight, on a level that honestly have not experienced before.  Despite their size, compared to the 11's there is only one extra 10" driver.  I am quite certain they will sound splendid in a smaller room.

The greatest synergistic benefit to these speakers is the preamp.  It is a new design:  OTL/OCL Allnic L10,000 linestage that uses 4 x 300B’s. The greater sonic influence in tube selection is from the 12AU7.  I will be rolling these latter tubes.

I will work with lighting and get some pictures.  Even though the windows are south facing, I have thick Doug Firs and Maples trees out back and lighting is limited for the AM.  That said Rain starts Tuesday and will clear in June, I kid you not. 

My recommendations to new Daedalus owners, maybe it is best to have the speakers face each other, run a capacitor amp 24/7 with classical music and wrap in quilts for a few weeks.  This break in process is going to be long.....

jhm731

Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #30 on: 23 Oct 2018, 01:42 am »
So, what do these speaker cost?

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #31 on: 23 Oct 2018, 09:17 pm »
So, what do these speaker cost?

 the  ZEUS are $33,500 base price.

audiotom

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #32 on: 24 Oct 2018, 04:41 am »

Update:  it takes so little to drives these speakers!!!!  my amps are 60 watt 300b x4, monoblocks. 
 

My recommendations to new Daedalus owners, maybe it is best to have the speakers face each other, run a capacitor amp 24/7 with classical music and wrap in quilts for a few weeks.  This break in process is going to be long.....

Absolutely do not do the facing speaker / quilt scenario.
Someone I know took that advice and damaged their speakers

Leave your speakers in optimal location
Enjoy hearing the break in evolve

If you are home - for some further break in Hook up a cheap tuner - play in 8 hour sessions - not 24/7

Things will break in properly in due time

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #33 on: 26 Oct 2018, 05:13 pm »
John took some pictures of his new speakers and they are great shots!
Thank you!

ZEUS made of Figured Baked Maple and Claro Walnut.

 :thumb:








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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #34 on: 26 Oct 2018, 05:16 pm »
We will be showing the ZEUS at CAF with Lampizator, LTA amps and WyWires in the Randolph Room.

In Room 516 we will show the Apollo with Lampizator, Wells Audio amps and WyWires.

It's a great show, come visit!
 :popcorn:

dodgealum

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #35 on: 26 Oct 2018, 06:47 pm »
Beautiful, Lou! Can't wait to hear them and the Apollo's at CAF. Should be a great show!!

woodsyi

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #36 on: 6 Nov 2018, 09:19 pm »
The Zeus sounded the best I have heard in any shows.  The room was big enough and treated well enough to let the speakers breath without discernable room mode issues.  There was twinkle on top that I haven't heard in Zeus before.  Always rich and organic in sound as well as looks, I always thought the highs were a little rolled off but not this time.  Lou says new driver mounting plates, crossover adjustments and other proprietary secret sauces made the difference.  Whatever, the combo (the electronics and the cables) in this room was singing.

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #37 on: 17 Nov 2018, 04:33 pm »
The Zeus sounded the best I have heard in any shows.  The room was big enough and treated well enough to let the speakers breath without discernable room mode issues.  There was twinkle on top that I haven't heard in Zeus before.  Always rich and organic in sound as well as looks, I always thought the highs were a little rolled off but not this time.  Lou says new driver mounting plates, crossover adjustments and other proprietary secret sauces made the difference.  Whatever, the combo (the electronics and the cables) in this room was singing.

Thanks! There have been many improvements the last year, some subtle some more dramatic. Besides the ones you mention we also use a new, much improved Eton tweeter, that has better extension, dispersion and speed etc.

ketcham

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #38 on: 27 Jan 2019, 10:48 pm »
I wanted to post some useful information here that I believe applies to all Daedalus owners and my even be somewhat of a surprise to Lou.

I replaced my Single Stage 60 watt 300b, 100 KOhm monoblock amplifier with a 7.5 watt PX25 tube amplifier and can not be any happier.  So far no trade off's noted.  Low wattage amplfiers work well for the Zeus!!!

The Allnic 311's have been produced for a while. The new version is not on their website - with the interstage transformer - which isolates the first gain power pentode-triode e810f tube from the signal path making the amps DEAD SILENT. I place my ear to my 99 dB efficient speakers - silence.

These amps at 7.5 Watts, single stage, no capacitor and of a very simple design have no issue driving 99 dB Daedalus Zeus speakers. So the entire Daedalus product line will be driven well by these amps. This leads me to believe the reason why my A6000 tubes have lasted 7 years of significant use is likely they have not been driven hard. There has not been much time in the amps yet so I will limited my impressions to: Increased clarity along the frequency spectrum. No compression at the higher frequencies. Some loss at the low end but the amps are again new. This, I anticipate will open up over the next month.

The A6000's 60 Watts 100 KOhm impedance will drive any speaker without issue regardless of their rated efficiency. Pretty complex point-to-point wiring. They are still produced, but with hesitation due to the complexity and time (read hands on labor) to build.  However, where the new amps shine could result from a lack of the parallel circuits that give the wattage the A6000's are known for.

That said, if you have highly efficient speakers 97 dB or better and listen to your music at non-ear damaging levels, go with the 311's. Invest the cost savings into some rare U52 rectifier tubes and PX25 tubes. They do not need to be matched pairs. Few are required. There is not biasing in this amp. If a tube blows, the meter direction tells you which one is bad. The circuitry is super simple. One fuse (not 5 fuses seen in the A6000), No capacitors or parallel circuits. This applies to ALL Daedalus speakers.

The circuit design and transformer design allows for stable topography and increase current through the tubes from 6 watt to 7.5 watts without predicted increase in tube wear.

If you are looking for an amp to pair with your speakers, regardless of the model, I would give these an audition. 

The size of the Zeus is deceptive.  It takes very little to drive them and running low wattage does NOT affect responsiveness and limit the dynamic range.

From the designer: KS Park:

"For PX-25 and A-6000, they are real single-ended, (one vs.four tubes), but there are two differences, first A-6000 is plate choke transformer drive (which need coupling capacitor) and PX-25 is a true interstage transformer coupled which is the most difficult method (no need of coupling capacitor).

In comparison, A-6000 has -6dB feedback for bass driving factor (Damping factor). Without feedback its bass is very poor, although -6dB is very slight and natural feedback, it is not good to have negative-feedback. PX-25 is real Non negative feedback, but bass is excellent naturally. A-6000 is better on very high frequency (because of feedback), it is so complicate and delicate. PX-25 is the most basic and authentic triode single-ended, only unique in the world, only Allnic can make this amp."

If anyone has any reservations regarding the Zeus, please PM for further discussion. 

Bill Baker

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Re: Building the ZEUS
« Reply #39 on: 10 Feb 2019, 08:02 pm »
Love the picture of those crossovers Lou. Work of art in themselves. Of course the cabin gets always have been. Hope all is going well.