See what the newbie can do

MonkeyK · « **on:** 12 Jan 2005, 10:09 pm »

As a result of my old reciever's periodic refusal to output sound, I have recently been given the go ahead put to gether a new system.

In this thread I plan to document a newbie's journey into the world of Hi-Fi.

Old system:
Sherwood RV5030R receiver/amp
Cerwin Vega L-7 bookshelf speakers
SliMP3 mp3 client to my server (all music ripped to MP3 format at 320kbps)
Technics 5 CD changer (only used for CDs that I have not yet ripped to the server)

My constraints:

User Interface: I should be able to control everything from one interface and that interface should intuitively make sense (even to my wife)

Time: I live a busy life so I want things to sound good without having to constantly fuss over them. Realistically I get an hour or two at a go where I can decompress and enjoy listening to music in one place; I don't want to spend 20-30 minutes of that time waiting for a tube amp to warm up enough to sound good.

Use: While it may someday become a HT system, I plan to use this sytem for two channel music. As such all it currently needs is to handle input from a CD player and from a MP3 player.

Budget: I am committed to making a decent system work for < $1000, but cannot do it all in one go.[/list]

I have started by buying a JVC RX-F10 for $230. A future upgrade to my MP3 client will cost $150-$180 leaving me $590-$620
to get a decent pair of speakers (probably used). I may make some minor modifications, but those will have to come out of my "allowance".

TODO - short term:

Find a new reciever

TODO - long term:

Research budget speaker cable

Research power cords (Wife says no mods to the device until the warranty goes)

Research power conditioners and power filters

Rerip CD collection to a lossless format

MonkeyK · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Jan 2005, 10:12 pm »

1/11 - my JVC RX-F10 arrives.
I unpacked everything and let it warm to room temperature while I disassembled my old setup. After it warmed up I set things up. The first thing that I notice is that this reciever is really designed for Home Theater. There are no inputs labeled for CD, Tape, or even just Aux. MP3 Client goes into the DVD input. CD player goes into the TV input. As I understand things, the labels are just labels and all of the inputs on this reciever should behave the same anyway. The wife may have a slight problem with having to select TV for the MP3 player and DVD for the MP3 player. Since they all amount to just input sources anyway, it would be nice feature for manufacturers to allow relabeling of displayed sources (e.g. when I select DVD on the remote, MP3 shows up on the reciever).

The stock power cord is pretty thick. Thicker than the cord on my CD player and thicker than the cord on my old Sherwood.

The remote looks nice and simple. I like that half of the functions are hidden from view by putting them under a sliding cover. It makes it easier to find things on the remote as well as prevents accidentally pushing an unintended button.

The direct interface is also nice and simple. One dial to select input, one dial for volume. On tunner input, press the preset button to use the input dial to cycle through preset channels. Very nice IMO.   However the blue light on the front of the device is very annoying, it distracts from the display. I would be nice to have an option to turn it off but it seems it is only possible to dim it in sync with the display.

On power up, I flipped through the various options. Went to DVD with my MP3 player turned on with nothing playing. Turned the volume all the way up and there was no noise at all. That's pretty cool. Tried the same thing with the CD player and got the same results.

FM tuner. The Sherwood did a better job pulling in stations, plus on my old reciever there was a sperate channel scan button; whereas on the RX-F10 I cannot find a way to channel scan. In the end this will not matter since I will have preset all of the decent local stations. What does matter is that the remote has tuner operations backwards. The memory button (to set a preset) is in the main button area, while access to the presets (the numbers) is beneath the slider. I can understand hiding the numbers, but it would be nice to allow cycling through tuner presets via the remote (similar to the way the dial directly on the reciever works).

MP3 Player. The remote's DVD section is already keyed to my MP3 player (SliMP3 uses JVC DVD remote commands). This is both handy and limiting. Handy because one remote works for both the reciever and the MP3 player (a big bonus). Limiting because if this reciever ever becomes part of home theater setup, I'd likely loose the unified remote to the SliMP3.

CD Player. Nothing special. My 5 CD changer has no remote interface, so it could not be controlled remotely anyway.

I left the tuner on with a volume of 10, let the wife know that the reciever is burning in and should not be turned off, and went to bed.


Break-in starts at 1/11/2005 9pm


In the morning the reciever was running rather hot on the left side (side with the speaker clips). The right side (side with the power cord) was barely warm. I could also hear the fan running when I was near the reciever. The fan is not audible from the positions where I listen to music. Silicon can take heat, but get it too hot and things start to fail. This is not a problem in computers where the component probably only has to last 2-3 years, but I like to think that this reciever will still be going strong well past that timeframe. I'll take the mild fan noise in exchange for longer reciever life.


Questions so far:
1)When I connect the CD player and MP3 client to the reciever, I have a lot of extra cable. What is the best way to store this? Should I roll it up and twist tie it together like it came shipped? Should I try to make the cable stay as far away from itself as possible? Should I put the CD cable and MP3 cable together (they should never both play at the same time).
2)Likewise for my power cable
3)Does placement of the components matter? Right now I have the CD player on the bottom followed by the reciever, with the MP3 client on top (the MP3 cliet has to be on top because it is small, maybe the size of a conventional telephone handset). Realistically, in my house, things will cover any available surface area, including the uncovered surface of the reciever.
4)Since I only have two speakers, so far I know that I need to set those speakers to "LRG" and all others to "No". Any other recommended settings tweeks?

brj · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Jan 2005, 11:06 pm »

MonkeyK, this will be a very useful reference thread if you continue to document everything in such detail - thank you!

Some other options to evaluate in place of the Slim Devices SqueezeBox:

-Apple Airport Express @ $129 new list price
-Roku SoundBridge Network Music Player M500 @ $199 new list price (M1000 and M2000 are functionally equivilent, but have nicer displays)[/list:u]
Note that I have no firsthand knowledge concerning any of these options. I list them simply because I've read about them online and they are priced similarly to your proposed solution. The supported formats differ a bit between them, but all support WAV.

MonkeyK · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 06:10 pm »

brj,

The airport express is nice but requires an interface. My server is in another room for now. In the future this may be a good option since I've always wanted to control my music using a wall mounted tablet PC. Ideally this would be a tablet PC with optical audio out, but if that were not possible, it looks like the Airport express would be a decent workaround

The styling on the Roku is terrific, but I can't shake the feeling that the Roku is a repackaged Squeezebox. The flourescent display is the only way to go for visibility and the huge display on the M2000 is very nice (of course for $500 it better be)

Carlman · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 06:37 pm »

One thing I'd recommend is if the Technics cd player has a digital out, connect it to the receiver. I'd recommend the same for the MP3. One thing I've noticed on my digital receiver (not a JVC) is that it tends to run much warmer using analog inputs rather than digital.

Also for a pair of good budget speakers I'd recommend the Usher s-520's. I think Bill at Response Audio may modify them as well, which would take them into a seriously good level.

Here's an ad for the speakers.

It'd be nice if you continued your log with updates to see how it goes.

Thanks,
Carl

MonkeyK · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 07:29 pm »

Thanks for the encouraging responses so far!

Well, I went to set the front speakers to "LRG" only to find that the reciever already took care of that for me. Since this is not the default, I am guessing that the reciever has logic to check for a subwoofer first. I did set all other channels to "NO", although I cannot see how this would affect anything.

So far I'm not detecting much sonic difference between the old Sherwood and the RX-F10. The sound is kind of muddy like someone talking through a couple of layers of fabric. I think three factors may be affecting this perception:
1)My wife and I are pretty quite people. I tend to shy away from turning things up loud enough to make thing sound real (so far the volume meter has not exceeded 20/50 --except for the silent test). No music is really going to sound real at the loudness of a regual human coversation. The Sherwood had real problems at very low volumes (it sounded like a lot of static) I suspect that there is a minimum amount of power required to make speakers perform.
2)I need to listen to them one right after the other to really compare. To do this I will finish the burn-in of the RX-F10 and then do a comparison. This won't be for another 10 days at least (300 hour burn in /24 hr days = 12.5 days)
3)My speakers are very likely a limiting factor. I am going to try a comparison between setting them at "SML" and "LRG" this weekend. I figure that if I don't hear much difference then there is a lot that the speakers are leaving out.

If the speakers are the problem, I will need to work on convincing the wife to speed up the timetable for that upgrade.
I tried finding the specs on the Cerwin-Vegas to no avail. While looking for info on them, I saw an auction on E-Bay where some Cerwin-Vega L-7s went for $30+shipping. That would be another $30 that I could put towards new speakers

Thanks for the recommendation on the Ushers. They certianly look nice. I am thinking that I need to get speakers that will perform well at low volumes. Is this what is referred to as efficiency? Would the Usher S-520 perform well at low volumes?

Carlman · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 Jan 2005, 01:01 am »

I don't know that speaker specifications are going to help find good sound. I've tried going that route only to find that the specs are loose guidelines that relate to the sound on occasion.

Higher efficiency speakers (90db+ sensitivity) will require less power to drive at any volume. I haven't found any relation that higher efficiency ratings correlates with the speaker sounding good at low volume.

What I have found is that the only way to hear anything is to try it yourself. I've heard the S-520's in direct comparison to a few other speakers in the $200-1000 range and thought they were excellent for the price. You will not find a speaker that does everything perfectly however, you can find a speaker that suits your tastes. The 520's were a little hot in the highs to me but the mids and bass were fantastic. They sounded good at all volumes. At every price point, some compromises will have to be made. Plus, with that particular speaker, I know Bill will tweak them in a way that will have them singing as well as anything at a local hifi shop for $1,000. He's been a great help to me so I don't mind plugging his services.

There are PLENTY of other speakers out there, though. I haven't heard them but there are some 'CBM-170's' that are very well reviewed but I don't know the price. If you do a search on 'speakers on a budget' or
'best speakers for the money'... or something like that in 2-channel forum, you'll get lots of reading material on speaker choices. I only recommend what I've heard and seems appropriate to who's asking.

The Cerwin Vega's are indeed your limiting factor. I think everyone has owned a pair at some point. I think the fact that you can't find specs and that they go for $30 should indicate their capabilities... not that price always equals performance... but the Usher's or CBM-170's would run in the 250-500 range... it's a serious jump in quality. Once you get to a point, you reach diminishing returns. And that's a different point for everyone.

-C

MonkeyK · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Jan 2005, 05:37 am »

So I just tried playing with the speaker size.

I took another speaker that I have (an unpowered cheapie sub from a Yamaha TSS-1B 5.1) and plugged it into the subwoofer RCA jack on the RX-F10. This let me set the subwoofer setting to "Yes" so I could play with the front channel settings.

If I understand things correctly, the crossover should be filter sound above to the front speakers and sound below to the subwoofer. Nothing came out of the sub and no matter what I set the crossover to, the Cerwin Vegas sounded exactly the same. So I tried the test tones: no test tone from the sub --which, after reading the instructions that specify that the sub needs to be a powered sub, is not suprising, I guess. This means that either the reciever is not doing the crossover (either intentionally or by defect) or Cerwin Vegas are so poor that they are not doing anything at 200 Hz and below. I am guessing that the problem is the reciever in this case.

I also tried the bass boost setting, but this just made the Cerwin Vegas sound even muddier than before (albeit with more bass).

Questions at this point:
1)Should I be hearing something from the sub with the crossover set at 200Hz even though it is not a powered sub and it's cone is only an inch larger than the front channel speakers?
2)Why can't I hear a difference in the front channels between "LRG" and "SML" settings (I would think that the lack of sub output should only make this more pronounced)

mcgsxr · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Jan 2005, 12:14 pm »

I am confused here - if the Yamaha sub is passive (no amp in it) what are you plugging the JVC sub out RCA into?

In order to have any information come out of the sub out, when you are using the DVD Multi inputs, you need to be sure that you are feeding the JVC a multichannel input from a DVD player - you are doing this right? You have 6 individual interconnects going from the 5.1 outputs of your DVD player, into the 6 DVD Multi inputs on the JVC right?

Then you access the menu on the JVC, and ensure that sub is on, and speakers are set to either S or L.

Only then will any signal pass out of the RCA output of the JVC, but even then, it is a signal designed to be amplified by the sub amp - not a signal capable of moving the cone of your sub to begin with.

Does that make sense? I had the ES-1 and played around with it for a while, but subsequently sold it off, to afford part of a new preamp I am hunting.

MonkeyK · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Jan 2005, 12:36 pm »

mcgsxr,
Like I introduced this post. I am logging what I do as I, the newbie to Hi-Fi audio, set this system up. I probably have a lot of misunderstandings that I am hoping will get corrected along the way.

That said:
This is still strictly two channel everything. My MP3 client has only the right and left channels for output, so these go into the RX-F10's DVD right and left audio in.

If the JVC RX-F10 is not capable of using some of its inputs for two channel audio from my CD player and MP3 player, then I will need to get a different reciever.

Yes, I should be using a powered sub (since the manual states that it expects a powered sub), but I don't have one. I would think that some sort of signal should be coming out of the sub jack and that it should have enough power to overcome the resistance of the speaker cable. So l I kind of expected to hear something faint come from the sub.

My real test was to see if there would be an effect on the Cerwin Vegas between "LRG" and "SML", which there was not. Not hearing anything from the sub made me wonder if I hear no difference because the reciever is not creating any difference.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Jan 2005, 01:54 pm »

I feel for the confusion that you are going through - this receiver is a little odd in how it does what it does, it is hardly your fault!

Basically it works like this - the DVD Multi inputs (there are 6 of them, all clustered together as I recall) are the only inputs that are free from conversion - these inputs are essentially meant to be used with a DVD player that has a built in DTS or DD 5.1 decoder.

IF you plug your source into the TV or other 2 channel input, you will be able to send a signal out the sub RCA. IF you are using just the L and R of the DVD Multi inputs, there will be no signal at the sub RCA output.

I am not sure if the line level signal out from the RCA would work in any way to activate a sub cone - never tried that one.

As for the speakers sounding the same on S and L, that seems odd.

Sorry I cannot help you - there are 2 or 3 REALLY long threads devoted to these receivers on the Multichannel/Digital Circle - I recommend that you take a spin over there, and read those - long, but you will learn exactly how to do what you can, with the JVC's.

Hope that helps a little,

MonkeyK · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Jan 2005, 05:33 pm »

OK, so you are saying that the DVD input behaves differently than the other inputs. I can switch to a different input and retest.

Looks like I need to study this thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=15254 (JVC RX-F10 and Powered Subs). A quick perusal seems to indicate that bass management is bypassed when the source is DVD-Multi, and behaves normally when the source is DVR/DVD. My MP3 client has it's left and right output plugged into the RX-F10's DVR/DVD Audio left and right inputs. I have not selected DVD-Multi as the source.

The DVD-Multi thing does not really make sense to me. The inputs make sense in terms of direction (frontR, frontL, center...), but how could the recording know best how to manage bass in different users systems?

MonkeyK · « **Reply #12 on:** 15 Jan 2005, 02:57 am »

Well, I switched the MP3 player to the VCR inputs and tried out the speakers at LRG and SML. The difference was clear as day.

Even if there is some reason to control the bass in DVD-Multi mode, it seems wrong that I can't change the front speaker settings in regular DVD mode.

This could also be a problem for me. If I need to have the DVD player in the VCR inputs, then I will be using the VCR selector and the DVD power button. Even though it is mostly a bonus that the DVD controls work on my MP3 client, it will make the system seem more complicated to my wife. If the wife percieves the system as complicated, she will be less willing to approve purchases

MonkeyK · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 Jan 2005, 05:14 am »

Yeah, look what the newbie can do.

He can be a tard.

I just tried changing the speaker settings between LRG and SML on DVD again and now it worked fine.
I must have had it set at DVD-Multi earlier after all.

mjosef · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 Jan 2005, 05:35 am »

Hey MK, you live and you learn, I like your approach, its almost like a journal of your travel through the world of HiFi...keep up the good work.
I can shed some light for you with regard to the sub not responding...think of the output of your cd player or any source except the phono in terms of a few tens of millivolts(40-80mV)...this small signal passes through a pre-amplifier stage which amplify those tens of millivolts to several hundreds of millivolts (400-1000mV) This bigger signal of hundreds of millivolts is then passed to the power amplifier which in turn amplify it into many tens of volts which is enough to drive the speakers. 1000millivolts= 1Volt . Speakers need several units of volts to generate sound. So if you just connect a speaker to your preamp outputs you won't hear a sound. Thats why a powered sub is specified for the sub out on any HT receiver.
Hope this clarify things for you. Enjoy the journey, lots of thrills ahead.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Jan 2005, 04:06 pm »

Mr MonkeyK, you have me giggling over here - I would need an entire CIRCLE to list all the silly mistakes I have made over the years - my fav was A/Bing some amps, and really hearing the difference - I then noticed that I had connected one of the speakers out of phase.... Dough!

Keep trying stuff, and good on you for listing it all out - I can only imagine the number of things I could have gleaned from a post like this, earlier on myself.

In fact, great that you are sharing this perspective, it is fun to read!

MonkeyK · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Jan 2005, 04:10 am »

Compared the JVC RX-F10 to my old Sherwood RV5030R over the weekend.

I probably broke several rules in attaching speakers. I made myself a Y of speaker wire for each terminated end. and then attached each speaker to the front channels on both the RX-F10 and the Sherwood (both have spring clip binding posts). I made sure to switch one reciever off before turning the other one on.

My source was my MP3 Client, the SliMP3. All of my MP3s are ripped at 320KBps (the maximum quality for MP3)

Started up Bobby Hutcheson's "When You Are Near", I figure that the vibraphone, is as serious a test as I could come up with.

Keep in mind that I had to buy a new reciever because the Sherwood occasionally stops outputting sound, and has problems generating anything resembling a clean signal at low volume. Also keep in mind that my speakers suck.

So what did I hear:
Even with bass management on for the RX-F10, the Sherwood sounded warmer (vibes really make this clear). Something that the wife said she missed. But the resolution on the RX-10 blew the old Sherwood away (another thing that vibes really show). I mean that I could far more accurately distinguish each note than ever before. The Sherwood was also a bit noisier, particularly at certian parts of the music, making it all the more clear that there was noise.

So there it is the RX-F10 looses some warmth, but more than makes up for what it lost with improved accuracy. With any luck I can improve the warmth by fiddling with the equilizer a little bit (any tips on how to approach this?)

MonkeyK · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Jan 2005, 04:41 am »

OK, I just took anther listen. This time with headphones since everyone is asleep here but me.

I think the warmth can be attributed to noise reduction logic in the Sherwood. With the RX-F10, I am hearing hiss and pop type sounds. These are sounds that I only hear the slightest hint of when playing back on the Sherwood or even from my PC. This probably also explains the accuracy. I think the Sherwood is quieting some of the higher frequencies.

I made some initial attempts to improve the warmth by adjusting the equilizer on the RX-F10 to +2db in the 63 and 250 Hz bands. I think this improved things somewhat and will have the wife audition it tomorrow.

corwin99 · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 01:02 am »

Quote from: MonkeyK

I probably broke several rules in attaching speakers. I made myself a Y of speaker wire for each terminated end. and then attached each speaker to the front channels on both the RX-F10 and the Sherwood (both have spring clip binding posts). I made sure to switch one reciever off before turning the other one on.

I just noticed this.. this may be affecting your sound. I'm not sure if it will damage and of your equipment, but i know when i hooked up my B&K Amp to my speakers that were also simultaneously hooked up to my yamaha receiver, it sucked the life out of the sound that was coming out. I did this mainly to see what would happen. I'd recommend using just one plugged in for testing the quality in the future.

neL

MonkeyK · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 04:16 am »

Thanks for the tip corwin99. I was kind of afraid that it would damage the equipment, but not so much so if I just kept one reciever turned off the whole time.

I had the wife review the EQ changes and she seems happier with the sound. I also added +2db at 1KHz.