More proof that the room is the most important component

Marbles · « **Reply #20 on:** 24 May 2003, 05:05 pm »

It is not a question of coverage, it is more a question of placement.

Really it is apples and oranges.

The 8th N stuff has a REFLECTIVE side that goes at a 45 degree angle at the corners and wall /ceiling juntures. This reflects the sound back into the room from those points.

Acoustic foam ABSORBS from about 500-1000 hz on up (my 4" foam does anyway)

How or why 8th N stuff works, I don't have a clue, but in my room it worked better than the acoustic foam, and I really liked the acoustic foam

EDIT:

OK, after posting the above, an hour later I read this from the 8th N site.

http://www.eighthnerve.com/methodology.html

Eduardo AAVM · « **Reply #21 on:** 24 May 2003, 11:29 pm »

It is incredible isn't it Marbles ? I also was astonished by the performance ot the 8th Nerve products.

Marbles · « **Reply #22 on:** 24 May 2003, 11:59 pm »

Eduardo,

within hours of putting my 8th N treatments up, I moved my speakers to much better positions.

Therefore, I can't really comment too much on thier stuff. I can say that after I had the speakers and 8th N stuff up for a week or two I decided to play with the acoustic foam that is (was) at the first reflective point of the right speaker. It was actually on my brick fireplace. I removed the 4 2' x2' squares and did not lose any soundstaging, and in fact gained some high frequencies that I was missing with my vinyl playback system.

Since I had the speakers there a long time ago and had problems with the soundstage going beyond the fireplace without the acoustic foam, and now it does go beyond it without the acoustic foam and without the negative effect of being overdamped that the foam contributed to, I can say that the 8th N stuff works GREAT for me.

BrunoB · « **Reply #23 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 03:26 pm »

Quote from: BrunoB

I am going to test the fire properties of a small sample of my foam (outside of course). Anyway, I don't feel comfortable having so much non-flame retardant foams in a room. So thanks for the links provided: they will be useful when I will start shopping for new foams.

Bruno

I bought an eggcrated foam 2.5' from foambymail.com (http://www.foambymail.com/Eggcrate.html) for $41. It is flame retardant. I placed it between my two main speakers, hanging from the ceiling. Waow

! This is really an upgrade . The soundstage is much better than with Walmart matress foam ($20). It makes my 626R disappear. Actually, this acoustic foam is better value

. It does not look very nice, but it makes me want to listen to my CD collection all over again. For only $41, I believe that's a tweak that is worth trying.

Bruno

Brad V · « **Reply #24 on:** 22 Jun 2003, 03:10 am »

Hi Marbles,

>>> Acoustic foam ABSORBS from about 500-1000 hz on up (my 4" foam does anyway)

It really depends on what type you get.

I ordered some Owens Corning 703 and 705. The 703 is 3 lbs per cubic foot and the 705 is 6 lbs per cubic foot. I'm getting the 2 foot x 4 foot pieces that are 2 inches thick. If you pair up 4 inches worth and place it right up against the wall, you will probably get down to around 300hz or lower, however placing it 4 inches off of the wall, you will get probably down to about 150hz. I'm doing 8 inches and according to someone who has tried it, I should get down to about 100hz or lower. I'm also going to try some of the 8th Nerve Stuff, as Hantra was gracious enough to offer to loan me 4 pieces.

The thing I like about the Owens Corning, is that it's easy to move around and put out on a temporary basis, which works great for WAF.

Have a great day,

Brad

JLM · « **Reply #25 on:** 22 Jun 2003, 12:57 pm »

Try the Decware site for some good information/products on room acoustics.

Steve there promotes the ideas of a combination of absorption and diffusion, short and long waves functioning differently, and offers some solutions.

Sorry, but the 8th nerve stuff doesn't ring exactly true with me.

Many dedicated sound rooms are overdampened. They don't sound like anyone's "real world" room/venue.

From a health standpoint I'd recommend against excessive use of exposed foam, fiberglass, etc. These materials can absorb and hold moisture that promotes the growth of molds, bacteria, and dust. And they can't be cleaned. Sounds flaky, but indoor air quality concerns are on the rise, and people have died from it.

John Casler · « **Reply #26 on:** 22 Jun 2003, 06:18 pm »

Quote from: JLM

From a health standpoint I'd recommend against excessive use of exposed foam, fiberglass, etc. These materials can absorb and hold moisture that promotes the growth of molds, bacteria, and dust. And they can't be cleaned. Sounds flaky, but indoor air quality concerns are on the rise, and people have died from it....

Might trying spraying them with Lysol once a month if it is of concern.

rkapadia@ROOP · « **Reply #27 on:** 22 Jun 2003, 08:18 pm »

EDIT: I am a representative for 8th Nerve. Sorry, I didn't read the updated FAQ before posting.

JLM,

I think you'd be extremely surprised with Eighth Nerve products if you took the time to try them. I was pretty skeptical myself, though this changed after examining the product and understanding the principles of how it works.

The Eighth Nerve website doesn't really do a complete job of explaining why the room treatment works. I'm not sure if you understand how soundwaves propogate through air and along walls, but there are four basic principles you need to examine:

1) sound wave diffusion
2) wound wave dispersion
3) laminar flow
4) sound wave energy (specifically applied to trihedral boundaries)

Please don't dismiss the above. Quite a few persons believe light waves and sound waves propogate similarly through air. While there are some similarites, there are huge differences when it comes to interactions with obstacles. Since light waves are a much higher frequency, they interact completely differently with solids versus soundwaves (this is a general summary, again there's a lot of detail involved).

Unfortunately, the full explanation of how these principles apply would be a lot of writing

. Just go to your local library and sit down when you have the time. Once you grasp the above, you'll understand why Bill's treatments are so effective.

I'd strongly suggest taking the time to email/fax Bill with a room diagram and take the money-back trial. There's good reason he has a 100% satisfaction rate - but you have to make sure the room treatments are properly applied.

Kind Regards

WilliamL · « **Reply #28 on:** 22 Jun 2003, 11:55 pm »

Roop wrote:

Quote

Unfortunately, the full explanation of how these principles apply would be a lot of writing . Just go to your local library and sit down when you have the time. Once you grasp the above, you'll understand why Steve's treatments are so effective.

I'd strongly suggest taking the time to email/fax Steve with a room diagram and take the money-back trial. There's good reason he has a 100% satisfaction rate - but you have to make sure the room treatments are properly applied.

[/b]

Roop, Are you sure you did not mean "Bill" and not "Steve".

Just want to clarify for other readers. Hell, Maybe I am confused.

Also, let me add a disclaimer that Rupesh is a dealer for Eighth Nerve products.

Thanks,
Bill

JohnR · « **Reply #29 on:** 23 Jun 2003, 02:48 am »

Quote from: rkapadia@ROOP

Unfortunately, the full explanation of how these principles apply would be a lot of writing.

OK, how about the short version for dummies then?

JohnR

rkapadia@ROOP · « **Reply #30 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 06:53 am »

DISCLAIMER: I AM AN AUDIOPHILE EQUIPMENT DEALER

John,

I'm not trying to be condescending. Like I said, take your favorite physics text that covers the above concepts, and learn how it applies to sound. The fundamentals for all of these principles lie within the length of a wavelength - sound being orders below light. However, part of the information learned on sound wave propogation is proprietary - there's no reason for me to divulge this information. Persons that wish to save that amount of money as applied to room treatments will go learn; otherwise you have to question if it's worth your time/effort to go learn these principles when a dealer has already realised full knowlege. If you think I'm lying, go right ahead and believe whatever ritualistic traditions regarding sound you wish - for myself I believe that physics, correctly applied, is a large step towards the ideal solution. Research studies by reknown professors within acoustics back this up.

Regards,

Rupesh

Quote from: JohnR

Quote from: rkapadia@ROOP
Unfortunately, the full explanation of how these principles apply would be a lot of writing.

OK, how about the short version for dummies then?

JohnR

rkapadia@ROOP · « **Reply #31 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 06:59 am »

DISCLAIMER: I AM AN AUDIOPHILE EQUIPMENT DEALER

John,

I'm not trying to be condescending. Like I said, take your favorite physics text that covers the above concepts, and learn how it applies to sound. The fundamentals for all of these principles lie within the length of a wavelength - sound being orders below light. However, part of the information learned on sound wave propogation is proprietary - there's no reason for me to divulge this information. Persons that wish to save that amount of money as applied to room treatments will go learn; otherwise you have to question if it's worth your time/effort to go learn these principles when a dealer has already realised full knowlege. If you think I'm lying, go right ahead and believe whatever ritualistic traditions regarding sound you wish - for myself I believe that physics, correctly applied, is a large step towards the ideal solution. Research studies by reknown professors within acoustics back this up.

Regards,

Rupesh

Quote from: JohnR

Quote from: rkapadia@ROOP
Unfortunately, the full explanation of how these principles apply would be a lot of writing.

OK, how about the short version for dummies then?

JohnR

JohnR · « **Reply #32 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 07:18 am »

Hey, I'm just asking.

How about you, Bill? Can you explain the laminar flow thing? You can assume I have a good grasp of basics like reflection, refraction, diffraction, room modes. I also have a copy of F. Alton Everest (4th Ed), which we could use as a shared technical resource if you like.

JohnR

8thnerve · « **Reply #33 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 02:00 pm »

Quote from: JohnR

Hey, I'm just asking.

How about you, Bill? Can you explain the laminar flow thing? You can assume I have a good grasp of basics like reflection, refraction, diffraction, room modes. I also have a copy of F. Alton Everest (4th Ed), which we could use as a shared technical resource if you like.

JohnR

John,

Acoustics is a fragile and young science. The Everest book points towards laminar flow concepts in several instances, but the technology behind the Eighth Nerve products could not be gleaned simply from reading this book. Our products work on principles that are being developed through R&D and the only tool we have in science, observation. Every physical theory started with observation and an attempt to explain and then quantify the phenomenon. There is a lot more to acoustics than the room dimensions and materials to attenuate frequencies based on the size of the wavelength. We create products that we know work. We also believe that we understand the reasons why they work, and use these concepts to further our products. If we make an assumption, create a product to benefit from that assumption, and it doesn't do what we expected, perhaps our assumption was wrong and it's time to step back.

I believe the currently accepted concepts of reflection, refraction, etc. are incomplete and oversimplified. This makes it very difficult to use a text based on fundamental incongruities with our work. Primarily I have issue with the overriding attitude that the characteristics of sound travel are almost identical to that of light. Simply because both can be expressed and quantified as a wavelength does not make them in any way similar. Photons and air molecules simply trying to achieve equilibrium are vastly different and should be treated accordingly.

And before anyone jumps up on the soapbox and yells that the Everest book is sacred science and that I am a heretic, just consider that it was considered scientific fact that the earth was flat, and that the Sun rotated around the Earth (which of course was the center of the universe). Pythagoras led a cult that killed people who suggested that there was a number zero because the concept of a number representing nothing was ungodly.

Our products are designed to do more than simply equalize the frequency response of a room, or lower the RT60 time. However, everything in audio is to an extent perceptual, which is one of the reasons why we offer a money back guarantee. Of course, no one has ever returned the product, so maybe we are on to something.

Best Regards,

Nathan Loyer
Eighth Nerve

JohnR · « **Reply #34 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 02:22 pm »

Um, OK, thanks Nathan, I appreciate the response. You could have just said "I don't want to answer the question," it would have been a lot less typing

8thnerve · « **Reply #35 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 03:25 pm »

Quote from: JohnR

Um, OK, thanks Nathan, I appreciate the response. You could have just said "I don't want to answer the question," it would have been a lot less typing

Now that would not have been nearly as much fun John. And besides, we are learning so much that things change constantly. I only wish we had a multi-million dollar R&D budget now! But you too can help! Support the Eighth Nerve R&D fund for better sound by buying our products!

Honestly John, I would be happy to speak with you about some of these things. Reducing a discussion to writing is very time consuming. I will however try to revise our methodologies section soon.

Hantra · « **Reply #36 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 03:53 pm »

All respect due to all involved in this posting. . .

In my opinion, a guy who will argue about a $20 product (with a 100% money-back guarantee) for a long time instead of trying it, probably is the type of guy that just likes to argue. People like that will not likely ever get as close as they could to world-class reproduction because they spend to much time on forums like this, debating that which they are unfamiliar with.

It leaves me a bit vexed. . .

B

JohnR · « **Reply #37 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 04:01 pm »

Heh, a million bucks in R&D funding, that's a lot of Seams to sell

My downstairs room is a little difficult, I think. I'm not at the point where I want to treat it (in fact I moved the stereo out of it, it's too much to deal with right now...), but when I get there I'll contact you guys for advice.

In the meantime, I'll brush up on that antediluvian fossil the Master Handbook, see if I can get more of it to sink in

Thanks again

JohnR

JohnR · « **Reply #38 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 04:02 pm »

Quote from: Hantra

All respect due to all involved in this posting. . .

In my opinion, a guy who will argue about a $20 product (with a 100% money-back guarantee) for a long time instead of trying it, probably is the type of guy that just likes to argue. People like that will not likely ever get as close as they could to world-class reproduction because they spend to much time on forums like this, debating that which they are unfamiliar with.

It leaves me a bit vexed. . .

B

Are you talking about me?

JohnR

MaxCast · « **Reply #39 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 04:23 pm »

John, you now just figuring this out???
We are ALWAYS talking about you.