Selah Vigore & miniDSP

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 884 times.

Nick V

Selah Vigore & miniDSP
« on: 3 Jul 2018, 07:44 pm »
Well, I've had a little bit of time with my Vigore. They are excellent sounding speakers with great bass extension, but as usual in my room, the un-corrected responses don't look that great.

Here are the original average responses, and the corrected response curve that I built as I'm using them now:



Obviously here, I have Dirac Live correcting the entire response range 20Hz - 20kHz. I also created a target curve where miniDSP only corrects to 500Hz and the speakers (and room) work their own magic from 500Hz and up.



My question is for Rick and anyone else that has experience with this, how do these curves look and is there something I'm missing? What are your thoughts on using Dirac all the way up the frequency range, vs. just up to 500Hz or so?

I just built and uploaded these today so I haven't had much of a chance to to listen yet. My initial thoughts are the music sounds more focused and dynamic, less boomy with tighter bass after the DSP correction. I'll do some more comparing over the next while, and I also want to build DSP curves with the stereo subwoofers in play to compare against just the speakers alone.

 

I know that I shouldn't push a ported enclosure much past it's tuning frequency, so I have the filter rolling off pretty sharply after 33Hz. Does that look okay? Can I push them a little harder?

I haven't built the filters with the subwoofers yet, but when I do, how do I make sure that I'm not pushing the Vigore too hard between 20-30Hz and cause port chuffing issues? The Velodyne 8" subs can be EQ'd flat to ~22Hz in this room (with room gain), but I don't want that EQ curve to push the Vigore too hard.

-Nick

Rick Craig

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 3434
  • Selah Audio
    • http://www.selahaudio.com
Re: Selah Vigore & miniDSP
« Reply #1 on: 3 Jul 2018, 09:30 pm »
Nick,

What positions were used for the microphone? Was the mic height on the tweeter axis?

Rick

Nick V

Re: Selah Vigore & miniDSP
« Reply #2 on: 3 Jul 2018, 09:40 pm »
I followed the Dirac Live guide for "sofa" measurements as closely as possible.

What you see is the measured average of the 9 positions.



Position one was measured at my ear level in the dead center of the sweet spot.

Then there are 4 measurements to the left and 4 measurements to the right of the sweet spot.

Two are slightly below and two are slightly above ear level on each side of the sweet spot. I only moved about 2 1/2 feet left and 2 1/2 feet right of the sweet spot for all the measurements. My ears are pretty close to dead on with the tweeter height.

Rick Craig

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 3434
  • Selah Audio
    • http://www.selahaudio.com
Re: Selah Vigore & miniDSP
« Reply #3 on: 3 Jul 2018, 10:55 pm »
Thanks for the additional information.  The bass peaks are from the room modes as well as the extra reinforcement of the corners. The dip in the 200-300hz range is often due to a floor reflection. With a cancellation like that you don't really want to try to correct it because it eats up amplifier power and won't really help the situation. As a rule it's always better to cut than boost but in doing so you lose some overall output.

Above 500 hz there should be little correction done other than applying a tilt for voicing. Adding narrow band EQ at one angle may create a problem at another angle if you're trying to correct for a cabinet diffraction. Since you're reducing the peak centered on 40 hz by a large amount adding a small amount of EQ below 30 hz might be alright. No more than 2-3dB; otherwise, you'll run out of headroom and possibly overdrive the woofer.

If you add the subs then apply a high pass filter on the Vigore (or adjust the Dirac curve) to get a smooth transition. The subs have the additional boundary reinforcement of the floor to help create a smoother in-room curve.

Nick V

Re: Selah Vigore & miniDSP
« Reply #4 on: 6 Jul 2018, 01:37 pm »
I figured I'd post an update as these continue to open up.

First, these are pretty huge monitors, I don't think my wife likes them as much as I do.

I've been dialing in my system's response using Dirac Live with the miniDSP DDRC-22D over the last couple days, and I'm just blown away by the performance of these speakers. All the room-induced boomy-ness is gone, and these things dig deep and are extremely tight and dynamic on the low end, and smooth and detailed through the mids and highs.

These ones are upgraded with Clarity Cap CSA capacitors in the tweeter and midrange network, and they seem to be opening up a little bit every time I play them. Especially after every LOUD listening session, they seem to open up more and more (or maybe it's just me getting used to their sound). They throw a massively tall, wide and deep pinpoint soundstage. Very detailed, but not overly forward at all. Their character is very neutral and maybe just a touch laid back, which pairs very well with the Esoteric source and the Krell amp. My former KEF LS50s and Paradigm Studio 100v5's were both more forward in their presentation, and I'm really enjoying the presentation of the Vigore.

I've never had a system that sounds as good or better as my system sounds right now.

I still haven't played around with the subs yet, or gotten any post-Dirac measurements with REW, but I'll try to get around to doing both of those things this weekend.

Nick V

Re: Selah Vigore & miniDSP
« Reply #5 on: 5 Sep 2018, 01:27 am »
Just for fun I tried plugging the ports to see what the response would look like in my room.

It definitely helps with the huge peaks I was seeing in the bass in my room.



Here I'm only correcting up to ~300Hz. Rick, should I try only correcting up to ~150Hz? The floor bounce cancellation shouldn't be corrected?

Without high-passing the Vigore (just running the subs in addition to the speakers from ~ 60Hz down), I wasn't getting a very smooth response with the stereo sealed subwoofers (phase issues causing peaks & dips I think?) so I wanted to see how the speakers measure with the ports plugged (which is likely how I'll run them if I do actively cross them over to subs). Does that make sense Rick?

I'm thinking about selling my miniDSP DDRC-22D and picking up a new miniDSP SHD instead so that I can actively (DSP) cross them over (I'm thinking high/low pass 24dB/octave) and time-align the speakers with the subs before running Dirac Live. I'll use two of the analog outputs (low passed) for the l/r subs, and I'll send the high passed digital output to my Esoteric SA50's DAC.

I don't think the Velodyne 8" subs give me that big of an advantage over the 8" woofer in the Vigore, so I might sell them and pick up a pair of Rythmik FM-8's.

Rick Craig

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 3434
  • Selah Audio
    • http://www.selahaudio.com
Re: Selah Vigore & miniDSP
« Reply #6 on: 5 Sep 2018, 03:11 am »
Just for fun I tried plugging the ports to see what the response would look like in my room.

It definitely helps with the huge peaks I was seeing in the bass in my room.



Here I'm only correcting up to ~300Hz. Rick, should I try only correcting up to ~150Hz? The floor bounce cancellation shouldn't be corrected?

Without high-passing the Vigore (just running the subs in addition to the speakers from ~ 60Hz down), I wasn't getting a very smooth response with the stereo sealed subwoofers (phase issues causing peaks & dips I think?) so I wanted to see how the speakers measure with the ports plugged (which is likely how I'll run them if I do actively cross them over to subs). Does that make sense Rick?

I'm thinking about selling my miniDSP DDRC-22D and picking up a new miniDSP SHD instead so that I can actively (DSP) cross them over (I'm thinking high/low pass 24dB/octave) and time-align the speakers with the subs before running Dirac Live. I'll use two of the analog outputs (low passed) for the l/r subs, and I'll send the high passed digital output to my Esoteric SA50's DAC.

I don't think the Velodyne 8" subs give me that big of an advantage over the 8" woofer in the Vigore, so I might sell them and pick up a pair of Rythmik FM-8's.

If you don't use a high pass filter on the mains the subs would need to be crossed lower (30-40hz); otherwise, there will be too much overlap with peaks and dips. The crossover point and phase / delay should be optimized before running the Dirac correction.

Plugging the ports isn't needed if everything else is set up correctly. It would sound better if your sub is set to 60hz since it moves up the -3dB point of the Vigore quite a bit when sealed (a low Q overdamped box it becomes). It also puts a greater excursion demand on the Vigore's woofer since it's too large of a sealed box volume (plus there's no augmentation from the port).

Adding an active high pass is a good idea and gives you more flexibility. The slopes will depend on what has the best integration. The upper end bandwidth on the sub will largely determine the crossover point. The dip centered at about 200hz is the floor bounce cancellation. You don't want to correct for that since you only waste amplifier power. 

Follow these steps to maximize the system performance:

1) Run a response curve with just the subwoofer, placing the microphone 2 inches away from the center point of one of the subs (the other turned down to zero). Use this curve to determine your -6dB point (adjust crossover until it's -6dB at 30-40hz).

2) Place the mic back at the listening position. Take a response curve of the subs and mains together.

3) Next reverse the phase on the mains and shoot another curve. Compare this curve with the curve taken in step #2. If the output increases around the crossover point when you reverse the phase then the delay needs to be adjusted.

A dip / null at the crossover point with the phase reversed indicates the delay is close to what it should be. The deepest null occurs when the delay is at the optimal setting. The volume on the sub relative to the mains also has an impact. You may try tweaking that as well. Room artifacts (standing waves, floor bounce) complicate things so keep in mind that adjusting these settings won't change the room effects.

4) After step #3 is finished then do the Dirac measurements. I generally only correct the peaks below the floor cancellation frequency. Above 200-300hz is a matter of preference and depends on how reflective your room is. If the room is too bright then you may want to add a slight downward tilt.

Nick V

Re: Selah Vigore & miniDSP
« Reply #7 on: 5 Sep 2018, 03:55 am »
Thanks Rick!

That's some great info, I have some work to do!

The Rythmik FM-8's that I'm considering can play up to 250Hz. Is it possible to get rid of the floor bounce cancellation completely by crossing over that high?

Seems like that would be a bit of a shame considering it would pretty much take the 8" SB Acoustics driver out of the equation?

Rick Craig

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 3434
  • Selah Audio
    • http://www.selahaudio.com
Re: Selah Vigore & miniDSP
« Reply #8 on: 5 Sep 2018, 11:36 am »
Thanks Rick!

That's some great info, I have some work to do!

The Rythmik FM-8's that I'm considering can play up to 250Hz. Is it possible to get rid of the floor bounce cancellation completely by crossing over that high?

Seems like that would be a bit of a shame considering it would pretty much take the 8" SB Acoustics driver out of the equation?

I wouldn't cross the Rythmik sub that high. The cancellation is one of those psycho-acoustic things that looks worse than it sounds. 60-80hz would be typical. If it's a 12dB slope on the Vigore the 8" will still get a fair amount of lower bass but of course with less modulation than it would running full-range.