Why would a PC be better?

WerTicus · « **Reply #20 on:** 25 Apr 2005, 06:26 pm »

thanks for your advice Jon - ill be looking very seriously at the L22 now.

No way to go from a harddrive based wav file collection to cds - waaaay too annoying to switch them!

Also interesting about the digital volume control problems - ill have to study this futher.

WerTicus · « **Reply #21 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 02:31 pm »

has any one done sound quality comparisions of lynx vs.... say creatives EMU, or some turtle beach gear or yamaha gear?

I would prefer to get the best to start with

JoshK · « **Reply #22 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 02:33 pm »

Hantra did some of those comparisons, take a look in the critics circle iirc.

dwk · « **Reply #23 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 03:16 pm »

Quote from: Jon L

I'm doing that with my Lynx audio PC. One word of caution, though, about using digital volume control via something like Foobar. I can hear sonic degradation if I'm using large attenuation, which I don't hear when I'm using say 3-6dB of attentuation.

My high sensitivity system would be way too loud at that level, so I'm using EVS ultimate attenuators to cut the output so I can use ~2-3dB attentuation on average, which also can act as remote volume control from my Viewsonic Airpanel
.

IMHO this is the by far the best way to set up a PC digital system. With good cards like the Lynx or Emu you should be able to get at least 10dB of digital-domain attenuation through your player before degradation shows up. By using either fixed or coarsely adjustable analog attenuation to get your overall system sensitivity into the right ballpark, you should be able to use your player control for everything else.
Most systems out there have WAY too much gain, particularly when using the better pro-grade soundcards with their hot outputs.

This is particularly advantageous if you're doing multichannel PC output ie crossovers etc. Good/convenient multichannel analog attenuators are either expensive or a ton of diy work.

WerTicus · « **Reply #24 on:** 28 Apr 2005, 04:13 pm »

ohhh thanks josh

EchiDna · « **Reply #25 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 12:59 am »

Werticus, a couple of other options (not in the same price league as the Lynx) M-Audio, RME, Audiotrak and Onkyo.... yes Onkyo

check it out: http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?114897#114897

and

http://www2.onkyo.com/jp/what/news.nsf/view/SE-90PCI?OpenDocument

also there is a 7.1 channel version which you can see a picture of on the digit life link....

things to note: highly modable - not too many (almost none!) SMD components lots of decent to very good quality parts in the stock version (Oscons, gold tune, silver/mica caps)

there is some stuff in japan that just blows away what we can get in the rest of the world - they keep the best at home!

lgeis · « **Reply #26 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 02:32 am »

S'cuse me for buttin' in, but here's a link that convinced me to pop for a Lynx: http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/compare/.

Of course, there are a myriad of issues when installing an $800+ sound card on a PC with a modestly talented power supply and so on.

One of the real advantages of the PC is the ability to tailor sound. There are several software packages that employ extremely sophisticated algorithms to generate audio effects...much more powerful than an equalizer. I really like Tsunami Pro: http://www.blackdiamondsound.com/. There are others. You can actually cut various versions of your favorite pieces.

EchiDna · « **Reply #27 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 03:22 am »

Lgeis, you aint butting in, you are most welcome

unfortunately the page you refer to is not well maintained these days and doesn't have any of the later generation cards listed (such as the EMU's, Newer M-Audio cards and the like)

There is a review on Digit life (linked earlier) which has a comparison between the lynx2 and the EMU line- the EMU comes out equal or better with the lynx in most areas.

Grumpy_Git · « **Reply #28 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 10:49 am »

Again apologies but for such a short question I thought a bit of thread jacking would be ok.

Does anyone know if the digital output on the mini itx mobos is bit perfect? If not I'll be filling the one pci slot with a soundcard.

thanks for any help, if not, thanks for keeping me reading

Nick

WerTicus · « **Reply #29 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 11:17 am »

im trying to cram as much information as i can about sound cards so any information is welcome - and that link is most interesting... although yes its out of date now.

I'm sold on the idea of a lynx l22 for the moment - trying to find a decent price on one!

grumpy - i have no idea if its bit perfect... i do know that on board sound cards are 'bad' to 'very bad' with regards to analogue, but digital probably isnt so bad

avahifi · « **Reply #30 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 11:29 am »

Volume controls in the digital domain work by throwing away bits. You can't make the bits "smaller or larger", you can only remove them completely.

It is beyond me how one could be serious about what brand of power cord they use on their computer when at the same time they are throwing away a significant portion of the signal data with a digital volume control.

Frank Van Alstine

WerTicus · « **Reply #31 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 11:51 am »

ill be using the analogue output.... does this count?

dwk · « **Reply #32 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 01:22 pm »

Quote from: avahifi

Volume controls in the digital domain work by throwing away bits. You can't make the bits "smaller or larger", you can only remove them completely.

It is beyond me how one could be serious about what brand of power cord they use on their computer when at the same time they are throwing away a significant portion of the signal data with a digital volume control.

Frank Van Alstine

Sorry, Frank, but this is just plain wrong. It is entirely possible to scale numbers in the digital domain without any significant impact *provided you maintain a 24-bit output word*. It's called 'multiplication', and we've been doing it since the dawn of time. In fact, its pretty much an iron-clad 100% gurarntee that any piece of digital music you listen to has been through several such passes in the mixing/mastering process.

If a 24-bit word is used, then the distortion products introduced are below the lsb, which is -144dB. With a 24-bit output word, the limiting factor in digital attenuation is the low-level linearity of the DAC used. On *good* soundcards this is no problem down to ~-110 db, or 10-14 dB below the lsb of CD audio. So, you can apply this much attenuation before there is any impact on the signal.

Really, this is pretty simple stuff. I don't know why more people don't get it. There certainly have been some horrible digital attenuation implementations in the past where they use a 16-bit output and hence do 'throw away bits'.And, sure, if you attenuate by 30dB or something it's not going to sound great, but there is nothing inherently wrong with digital attenuation if you take appropriate care.

Carlman · « **Reply #33 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 01:38 pm »

Frank,
Consider doing a demo for yourself. Use any PC with as a source, use music copied to the hard drive with no compression. I was quite skeptical myself.

A PC and an external DAC is a wonderful thing... A PC with an external digital processor, like a TacT is an insanely wonderful thing. Your mind may not want to let you enjoy it but your ears won't lie.

WerTicus · « **Reply #34 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 02:10 pm »

owning the nuforce amp with its switching power supply - i can easily believe that quality can come from this form of power, which is what i understand is a major reason people arnt interested in pcs.

goskers · « **Reply #35 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 03:47 pm »

OK, along the same lines here; how do you get the best possible (lowest jitter) output from a computer.

My pc is already silent, my Squeezebox2 should be on my doorstep at home which I will be running directly into a DEQX PDC2.6. I looked at empirical's offerings but they seemed a little steep.

Anybody had any experience with the best digital out from a pc as their goal?

srclose · « **Reply #36 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 04:03 pm »

I've just broken in the EA Off-Ramp Turbo to allow separating the computer from preamp. Just finishing a comparison between the USB link and SPDIF cable.

goskers · « **Reply #37 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 04:31 pm »

Great, tell us some comments when it becomes a little more familiar to you.

srclose · « **Reply #38 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 05:48 pm »

This weekend I'll have enough time on the system to do that, the Off-Ramp has >500 hours. I found that I prefer Foobar without resampling, so the modded dAck is operating as NOS, so the USB is just replacing the SPDIF.

SRC

goskers · « **Reply #39 on:** 29 Apr 2005, 06:11 pm »

If you could try to do some strict listening tests to determine if the pc as transport is better with or without the off ramp then that would be great. I have not used the SB2 yet but have had some email conversations with the slim devices guys. They are listening to their customers quite a bit about product development and that seems very evident with the new offering.