Tidal sounds bright?

richidoo · « **on:** 28 Jun 2018, 07:14 pm »

Do you guys think Tidal files sound a little bright, edgy, more intense than the CD of the same music? Of course source equipment makes a difference, but I'm hearing an edgy brightness on my system, in my car and on my phone. Definitely more forward than the vinyl and CDs copies of the same music I've listened to for years. Different master maybe. Some recordings seem fine, others are obviously brighter than they should be. I'm wondering if anyone else shares this impression? Maybe not on every track but more often than not? Maybe all the streamers are like that but compression dulls the intensity of the brightness so it's not as evident on Spotify.
Thanks

Tyson · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Jun 2018, 07:21 pm »

Oh yes. As you say, not 100% of the time, but enough to be annoying. So now, one has to decide - is the convenience of Tidal (or any streaming service) worth the drop in quality? For me the answer is 'no' and so I save $$ on the subscription services.

I feel the same way about video too - if I can get a 4k disk, or a regular blu ray, I'll watch that before I do Filmstruck, Netflix, or Amazon.

nc42acc · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Jun 2018, 07:37 pm »

Are you using the HiFi streaming level?

Emil · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Jun 2018, 07:52 pm »

Thankfully, NO. Love the streaming

Sold my PS audio transport so I can no longer do any direct comparisons. But when I do stream songs that I'm very familiar with from my silver disc days, I cant say I hear a difference. In fact, unless I'm kidding myself, sometimes they sound better.

Richidoo
I know you have one of these. Others may want to give it a shot

https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-spdif-ipurifier/

richidoo · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Jun 2018, 08:47 pm »

Quote from: nc42acc on 28 Jun 2018, 07:37 pm

Are you using the HiFi streaming level?

Yeah Marty, it's Tidal HiFi.

Thanks Tyson, good to know someone else hears it too. The convenience of Tidal is nice, especially with Roon, but I agree with you it's probably not worth the Roon+Tidal fees (to me) just for the convenience alone. The real value of Tidal for me is access to so much music, and, of course, knowing what the Carters are up to, day by day.

nickd · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 04:13 am »

Thought I might be crazy so I kept it quiet but yes Tidal is thin sounding. I stream over 90% of the time. Strange thing is Pandora sounds much more natural on my rig and is close in resolution.

I was thinking of switching to a full ITunes streaming subscription. My son swears by it, but is not really an audiophile even though he has some pretty sweet gear.

Anyone compare iTunes to Tidal for tone and resolution?

JLM · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 10:15 am »

Tidal HiFi resolution was crummy until I recently upgraded from DSL to fiber optic. Now so far it's all but indistinguishable from iTunes (ALAC ripped CD's), A/Bing the same tracks of course. BTW only listen to either on my main rig.

Questioning sound quality from car/phone sources? Are you kidding? Am I missing something?

richidoo · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 12:52 pm »

Sure, car/phone is not an ultimate reference, but you can still hear the brightness of Tidal on those compared to aux, radio or Pandora playing on the same system. Actually, I can hear it on my laptop speakers too, but I thought I better not include that in my data.

My point was that this Tidal brightness I hear is not limited to my main hifi system. I do have fiber internet service. I didn't notice a change in Tidal when it was installed, but I was new to Tidal and Roon then, was still getting used to the change to hirez streaming. I had used Pandora for years and didn't notice a change in tone when the fiber was installed. Thanks JLM!

I don't notice the same kind of brightness on Pandora. Occasionally a sharp edge from a tenor sax, etc but that's typical effect from file compression. I do get bored of Pandora playing the same 100 songs over and over on my fav bebop/combo station.

Assuming there is a difference in the sound of Tidal flac stream compared to a locally stored flac, can anyone think of how that could happen? Theoretically it should be the same bits, right? They say they it's flac, same codec I use, so that shouldn't make a difference. Weird

nc42acc · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 12:57 pm »

I don't usually use Tidal for critical listening but now you have my curiosity peaked so this weekend I will compare Tidal to my storage based music. I will see if I hear the brightness you are hearing.

richidoo · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 02:18 pm »

Maybe I should just continue to buy the CDs of those albums I like enough to listen critically, or often. I thought Tidal HiFi could alleviate that music buying expense. And it probably can, this isn't a deal-breaker for me. Still sounds excellent overall. But once you train your ears then you're vulnerable to hearing SQ defects everywhere.

It's not just that the treble seems hotter, it seems punchier, snappier, a more aggressive sound overall. It sounds similar to what Levinson #53 amp does to music. Makes it very intense and attacking. It's like the contrast is turned up if I were to make an analog to video. Could be the EQ is still dead flat and it's something else going on. But it seems less comfortable to listen to me than local file. I notice I don't get the 'listening lust' for Tidal, but I do still anticipate my favorite radio shows and for spinning vinyl.

I could imagine Tidal using some kind of psychological DSP to make their pop and rap tracks sound more stimulating. I know there are broadcast processors that have options like that, but that's a lot of DSP to apply it to thousands of simultaneous streams. Is it possible?

TomS · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 02:35 pm »

Quote from: richidoo on 29 Jun 2018, 02:18 pm

...
I could imagine Tidal using some kind of psychological DSP to make their pop and rap tracks sound more stimulating. I know there are broadcast processors that have options like that, but that's a lot of DSP to apply it to thousands of simultaneous streams. Is it possible?

They have enough very serious (non-technical) problems without worrying about stuff like that

I sure hope someone else (in US) decides there is a market for CD quality streaming before Tidal implodes. Seems they're not even well run enough for someone to snatch them up for next to nothing.

In terms of SQ, Tidal sounds fine to me, though I've noticed 22khz streams pop up through Roon lately, weird. Now, I only buy the music I expect to hit repeat on a lot of times or is not widely available (like ECM was before).

garyalex · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 03:19 pm »

Interesting. I listen to Tidal nearly every day, sometimes for hours at a time. It doesn't sound lean or bright to me. It sounds like good digital. If it did I wouldn't listen. But then, my system is definitely on the warm side.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #12 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 05:25 pm »

I listen to Tidal frequently through a pretty modest device (Bluesound Node 2) and it sounds pretty darn good- close enough to my Naim CDP with PS that I have not used it in months. I don't hear any brightness on any of the albums I know well and are less compressed than new stuff. Anyway, totally different experience here.

richidoo · « **Reply #13 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 05:59 pm »

Yup, bad news biz... But Japanese Softbank owns a lot of Tidal I assume they'll snatch it up when Mr. Carter finally blinks. They own Sprint and trying to merge w tmobile. The subscriber base is too valuable to just close shop.

RandyH · « **Reply #14 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 06:17 pm »

Tidal sounds great on my system. Even for "critical" listening. I have a Lumin T-1 streaming Tidal and from my NAS. Between my CD player, Tidal and streamed FLAC files I have difficulty distinguishing between the three but I think I prefer the Lumin streaming either Tidal or FLAC files to the CD player (Bryston BCD-3), but it is very close.

Stercom · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Jun 2018, 06:36 pm »

Rich - I've never had Tidal sound bright. I use an Auralic Altair (basically a Vega with a streamer built-in). Scott

richidoo · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Jun 2018, 02:29 am »

Thanks for all the responses! Very interesting. Seems the majority does not hear what I hear. What else is new! haha

I will try some more controlled experiments.

Johnny2Bad · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Jun 2018, 09:23 am »

It's entirely possible that you are hearing different masters on the varying formats. I don't know that for sure but it's worth noting that unique mastering for CD and mp3 (or iTunes) is a long established practice of the labels ... by that I mean at the release of a new album, not a remastering of an existing album, and in the last few years they also master for LP differently as well. I would not be the least surprised to learn they master the Tidal (or "streaming") files differently at the same time. Pure conjecture on my part, but easily done and just an extension of current practice.

It's not new either ... they also did so back when cassettes still outsold CDs (to the early 1990's) and even back when it was just analog cassette and LP. In the 1960's they mastered the stereo and mono LP versions differently. It's also very common practice to master for a radio airplay version different than what is released on other formats (sometimes a re-release of a CD or a compilation will include the radio mixes as "bonus tracks", so it's not like there is no proof out there).

Put another way, if you are listening to an LP and comparing it to a CD, and you hear no difference, there is something terribly wrong somewhere. I don't stream (unless you call Sirius XM streaming, and they definitely do sound different but that should be no surprise; it's an 80~120 kbps codec [voice only stations are 64 kbps]), so can't offer any personal experience one way or the other, but really ... I think that if they are not mastering streaming and CD files differently, the real question should be what's the holdup?

Rich Carlson · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Jun 2018, 10:42 am »

I too hear the brightness, and CDs ripped to my server consistently sound better. I went back to Deezer, which is also "CD Quality" and find that it sounds better and has a better selection. Same price as Tidal.

Roninaudio · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Jun 2018, 11:03 am »

So Deezer is 20 a month for 16bit/Flac? Will/does this then compare with Qobuz which is going to pop here soon in the US? I'm thinking a Deezer trial might be in my future... However Spotify sounds good. Would be interested in how much better a "premium" service may sound and then compare to resident Flac files..