Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing

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brother love



Hear Clifford Brown, Is this the correct concave knob? : https://www.homedepot.com/p/Liberty-1-in-Polished-Chrome-Concave-Round-Cabinet-Knob-P65010H-CHR-C/204144097

Judging by the photo, it looks like the screw shank of the concave door knob is recessed in the wood base below it (or was it cut-off some way)?


Hear Clifford Brown

Yes that's the one and correct, the screw shank of the concave knob is recessed into the wood base.  I used a drill press to make the three holes in the wood base that are just slightly larger diameter than than the screw shank part of the knob.  I put some acrylic clear caulk in each hole to hold the knobs in place. 

With my speakers (Spatial M3 TMs) there's really no threat of them tipping over.  I've bumped into them and they just move side to side on the ball bearings.  If bumped hard enough the upper base could roll off the lower one, then the speaker might tip over, or just end up at an awkward angle with one side on a ball bearing and one side not.  But if my kids were still living at home I probably wouldn't do this.

I made the bases out of 3/4" MDF, stained black then given two coats of polyurethane.

Captainhemo

did you consider getting the carpet spikes for the gaia's ?

No but that is a  good  idea

jay

undertowogt1

Well just lifting them up certainly makes a difference. I've raised mine so that the center of the compression driver matches the height of my ears. Try doing this and see how you like it; I know I sure do. :D 

Isolation is a bonus, and to be honest I think boxed speakers benefit more from it than OBs.

I raised mine about  5 inches and prefer it as well.

emailtim

I made these after reading some of what Barry Diament wrote on Computer Audiophile.  MDF on the floor with three drawer pulls attached that have a concave face.  These are for the ball bearings to rest on.  The top MDF has a large ceramic tile attached to the bottom with liquid nails.  This is for the ball bearings to have a hard smooth surface.  Actually a friend made these for his Magnepan 3.7i speakers and he said "All I can say that it has taken my 3.7s to a new level.  Vocals just sound more realistic.  Cymbals and percussion just have added resolution.  The entire presentation sounds clearer."  I can't say I hear that much of a difference, but there is more clarity.  I'm not sure if the improvement I hear just comes from raising the Spatial M3 Triode Masters up a bit.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35143-vibration-air-roller-bearings-thanks-to-barry-warren/?tab=comments#comment-713639

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/










Very cool DIY project.  The recessed drawer pull is a great tip for future projects.

rollo

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In the OP doesn't the use of the rickety wooden table invalidate all the results?  Shouldn't the speakers rest on the most solid surface possible so that the effect of each isolation devise could be measured more accurately rather than through the lens of the unstable platform that smears everything?

For Rollo's excellent suggestion of the 7/8" dowels, I'm wondering if they should be parallel with the sides or front of the speaker.  From the post I believe he's saying parallel with the front/back, but I'm thinking parallel with the sides would halt any forward/back movement caused by the speaker moving in the same direction.


   The dowels are to placed perpendicular the side of speaker. One front one back. Just need a level floor below.


charles

emailtim


   The dowels are to placed perpendicular the side of speaker. One front one back. Just need a level floor below.


charles

Don't you lose efficiency allowing the speaker to move back and forth versus anchoring it ?  If it moves back and forth, that force that should go into making music gets burnt up mechanically moving the speaker diminishing music production.

rollo

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  No. We are not talking big movement here. Getting more info with more weight. Subs another issue. They should be spiked.


charles

DaveC113

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Don't you lose efficiency allowing the speaker to move back and forth versus anchoring it ?  If it moves back and forth, that force that should go into making music gets burnt up mechanically moving the speaker diminishing music production.

It's very easy to do the math if you're interested, but consider a 100g woofer cone pushing against a ~50 kg cabinet. The cabinet not being anchored doesn't make much of a difference.

Danny Richie

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And yet spiking a speaker to the floor tightens up bass response.

DaveC113

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And yet spiking a speaker to the floor tightens up bass response.

I do not agree with that... It's also a meaningless statement unless you state what you're comparing it to and what the definition of "tightens up bass" means to you.

I can easily support my position with math... but it's so simple I don't think I need to... 

Danny Richie

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And yet it is common observed and accepted by many people...

DaveC113

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And yet it is common observed and accepted by many people...

That may be true but "tightens up bass response" is fairly ambiguous... I'm not sure what you mean exactly.

Danny Richie

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Come on man. How about the bass can get tighter, and less bloomy.

It's a bit like a sub with cabinet wall resonances. The resonances might be minuscule compared to the output of the woofer, but taking away the resonances sounds cleaner for sure. 

DaveC113

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Come on man. How about the bass can get tighter, and less bloomy.

It's a bit like a sub with cabinet wall resonances. The resonances might be minuscule compared to the output of the woofer, but taking away the resonances sounds cleaner for sure.

Ok, that helps. I'm not trying to be difficult, just need more info to better understand your experience otherwise we may be talking about different things.

With IsoAcoustics stands I've had the opposite experience. Reducing the transfer of vibration using them has always cleaned-up the bass in the way you describe because it reduces resonances from the home and everything in it. Just like your subwoofer example, the output from my home is small vs the speaker's direct output, but reducing the home "singing along" with the music makes the sound cleaner.

I don't doubt your experiences but I do wonder how they could be so different? Possibly the design of the speaker cab and listening space... My experience is mostly in residential homes with modern construction, which is easily excited by audio systems playing at moderate to higher SPLs. Also, I do think vibration control devices can't be generalized because the effects are often very different. For example Rollo's dowel rods will only isolate in one dimension and couple in the other two. Ball bearings isolate horizontally but not vertically. IsoAcoustics stands do both, but maybe to a different degree vs many other stands. I can say that myself and others results from Iso stands seem to be very similar. This is why I ask what you compare spiking to? I think it is possible you compared it to something else that was not nearly as effective as Iso stands.

Typically, if we weren't dealing with audio, we'd have measurements that would describe attenuation vs frequency, which might allow some correlation of subjective experience with measured data, but of course we don't have that information...

maty

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I know, this thread is about speaker isolation but...

What is the best rack to put the amplifier?

http://www.lavardin.com/lavardin-faqE.html#support

Quote
...Should I use cones, rubber feet or springs under components?

It seems every body has forgoten about the story. In the late 70's when Gilles Millot (famous speaker and driver designer) first presented spikes under speakers, the tip was facing a wooden floor.... The spike is only one part of the system : the part that is easy to sell and ship .... Spikes and cones tips must face a damping / spreading material like plywwod. Then, only can the spikes behave as a "large bandwidth" and "omnidirectional emitter" of energy in the dissipating material, thus allowing minimum energy return to the component through the spikes. Only if you have a thick plywood plinth under components, it is worth to try what happens with cones or spikes. Most of the rubber feet, springs or inflating devices are no useless for quality : mostly good enough to provide a less disturbing sound balance in a poor sounding system.


Does plywood also improve speaker's balance and micro-dynamic?

The problem is very much the same as with components. The difference is that some parts of the speakers actually generate vibrations. For the same reasons, decoupling materials should be rigid and damping to allow spreading of the vibration's energy. Again the best material is plywood... A good thick plinth of plywood where to spike a floorstander speaker is a must. Additionally, spikes won't scratch the floor any more. Same applies under stands of bookshelf speakers. Additionaly, one can put plinths on top of each stand. If speakers are also on spikes, it can be also interesting to keep the spikes under the speakers ....



There is only 3 feet under Lavardin Technologies amplifiers. Why?

3 feet is the guaranty that each foot will receive a constant pressure what ever is the flatness of the support. With 4 feet and a non perfectly flat support, one foot can remain unloaded. They are made of specific hard neoprene rubber to allow at least good results even in the most adverse environment.

"decoupling materials should be rigid and damping to allow spreading of the vibration's energy"

Like viscoelastic -> spring–mass system. Years ago I chose Tecsound SY 70.

Danny Richie

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Dave, my experiences are from our listening room and various audio shows.

The stability of the floors can vary as much as noise on the A/C lines. Some are pretty solid and some will move.

At shows we go through a lot of moving and positioning of the speakers to find the right spots and once we've found the spots then we spike the speakers.

DaveC113

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Dave, my experiences are from our listening room and various audio shows.

The stability of the floors can vary as much as noise on the A/C lines. Some are pretty solid and some will move.

At shows we go through a lot of moving and positioning of the speakers to find the right spots and once we've found the spots then we spike the speakers.

Ok, I'd just say if you haven't tried the Iso stands they're worth a shot. Maybe you won't like them, but reviews seem to be very consistent. Also, pricing isn't nearly as ridiculous as many others, although the Gaias are spendy they put a lot of effort into design.

I appreciate you sharing your experiences.  :)

brother love

I made/ installed new floater roller bearing stands/ platforms for speakers, amp & dac following the Barry Diament Audio "seismic isolation" concept (many thanks to Hear Clifford Brown for link & pics of his speaker stands utilizing this method with cabinet concave door knobs):

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/24166-equipment-isolation-and-vibration-damping/?page=15

Costs per stand platform
$6.25- 12" x 12" x 3/8" marble tile (Home Depot 5 tiles box/ 4 stands)
$3- (3) 1" dia. chrome concave door knobs (Home Depot)
$0.25- (3) 1/2" dia. marbles ($1 bag- 50 marbles (Dollar General)/ 4 stands; Amazon- (25) 1/2" chrome ball bearings $6/ 4= $1.50)
$3.75- mdf: 4' x 4' x 1": $15 (Home Depot)/ 4 stands (I used some scrap 3/4" plywood that I had handy)
$5- can of primer/ black spray paint (covers all 4 stands (unpainted undersides))
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$18.25 + tax total cost per stand/ platform ($19.75 + tax using chrome ball bearings)

Initial listening impressions w/ familiar tracks regularly used for audition purposes: better focus, accuracy, detail. Bass is tauter, more refined.
Note: I have not yet included bicycle inner tube air bearing for amp/ dac as recommended.







timind

I thought it was brilliant.  :o :lol:

The comment on "never have a square room" is ridiculous. My room is near perfect 12x12x8 and you'd be amazed at how good it sounds.